We are currently looking for a electronic means of storing our documents i.e. reports, service manuals etc. Has anyone any expeirence of some good systems (not to expensive) that can do the job?

Ask any of the government departments, they should be able to help!!

I would start off by keeping things dead simple, Mike. What's wrong with storing Word files in one directory, .pdf's in another (etc.)? After all, that's what PC's are for (well, at least that's what they used to be for)!

Later on, if you're keen, find a database manager that you like (eg, Access, FoxPro ... even some old dBASE for Windows) to either contain the actual data, or "point" to it.

Keep it simple, Mate, or else you'll end up in the mire like G.Frown and Co.!

Is this something you'd store on a local PC? Or perhaps to have the documents available on an intranet?

If it's the latter - will it be an NHS server? (I suspect they are mostly Windows based.) If it's not Windows - there's a heck of a lot of good open-source software out there.

Mike,
There are companies out there who will scan archive and index documents for you. Our Trust is heading in that direction. Old records are scanned and you are given CDs with the image of the document plus an indexing and search facility.
These can be put on a central server if you want.
Have a word with the patient records department they are usually quite up on records management.
It is a simple task to do yourself just scan the document and store it in a logical file system - easy but time consuming.
Robert

We scan all service docs here & store as a pdf. No special software, other than the adobe writer, required.

Get Office 2007 on one pc....then just install the free 'save as pdf or xps' plugin from Msoft

Then you can convert word, excel, everything to pdf and store somewhere on your server


saves time in scanning, 'cos you are saving it in pdf format

Mike
The human eye and hand combined with paper make a search method that's really hard to beat. If you are going all electronic you will need software that can search for text WITHIN stored documents. Opening and closing PDF files on screen while you look for information would be a nightmare.

Marc

Its called "Windows" isn't it?

Ed

... or, at least, Adobe Reader.

Mike,

I do agree with Robert that it is quite straight forward and simple to archive documents these days. I have been using Paperport scanning software all these years and find that this is amongst the best I can find with all-in-one Brother scanner and also comes foc. Paperport can convert scanned file to PDF, JPEG, and many more. You need to index the files for easy retrieval.

If its PC based this may suffice!

If its server based then as Huw said there a ton of freebies out there!

Eddie

At home I've got one of these, its a bit old technology as Axis have gone more into security cameras but it scans documents, converts them to PDF and dumps them on a file server.

Eddie.
No its definitely not Windows.
Computers are good at burying information. If at any point later on you need to access data within a document from a mass of documents in an archive the problem is WHICH DOCUMENT.
Paper allows you to flick through. Windows and Adobe require each individual document to be opened onscreen before you can check the contents. Hence the need for something that will search for text within a batch of files without you opening each file individualy for a manual search.
Geoff.
I'm not aware of Adobe being able to search a batch of closed document files for text. If it could that would definitely be the way to go but I think when people say they are putting their paper documents into Adobe format most of them probably mean they are straight scanning docs in which will produce a non-machine searchable photocopy of the paper doc. Thoss are REALLY hard to search.
Marc

I agree Marc, Windows can be a pain! I have just got into the habit of archiving in a relatively clear fashion, but yeah still not perfect! Vista is better and gives a preview of MS files but as yet no PDF preview! I will look into your suggestion, thanks! Also totally agree that scanning docs into a pure graphic image i.e. Jpg or Bmp is asking for trouble! I would like to see somthing like an "Itunes" for documents! That would be ideal!

Eddie

For searching in many document formats this little thing shows that Google is getting everywhere. Only thing at the price of $2,990 I don't think Mike or anybody else will be rushing out to buy one in a hurry

I'm looking at it right now.

Adobe Reader 7.0 | Search

... select "What word or phrase would you like to search for?"

... select "All PDF documents in ..." (select drive, directory etc.).

... click on [Search] ... works fine.

You then get a list of .pdf files that meet (contain within them) the search criteria. OK, so you have to click on them one by one to call them into the Reader, but (when you do) you are taken straight away to the searched for text, which is high-lighted.

They're also very good at recalling information if you set up (and maintain) a half-decent database!

Thanks for that Geoff. Thats a REALLY good feature in Adobe I completely missed.
In the early 90s I was dead keen on new technology, so I stored all electrical test results (from Rigel 255) in a huge database. The search capabilities were excellent. Alas the tables were so enormous that making any visual use of them was nigh impossible.
I reverted to storing results in the true portable document format, plain text files. It doesn't get any simpler. Now I have thousands of results with files named on Inventory no and a rolling test no (courtesy of our Metron QA90s). If someone asked me how many items failed in the last year and I'd be stuck.
Conversion to PDF looks like a goer but I'd better look before I leap this time.
Marc

You're preaching to the converted there, Marc. I'm very much a plain ASCII man myself.

But, don't you use any database software at all? Access, dBASE, FoxPro, Paradox ... ? If you want, get those text EST results to me and I'll get them converted into .dbf, or whatever. Actually, I would be interested in taking a look at that data anyway, purely from an academic point of view.

Meanwhile, perhaps I'm being a bit thick (?), but I can't really see why you want to store EST results in .pdf. Get them into .dbf, then you can do anything you want (except make pretty pictures, that is).

PS: I'll leave it to others to ponder why you would want to save all those results! Why not simply use a "Pass/Fail" flag?

Geoff
My understanding is that retention of EST results for electric kettles etc is mandatory under the Electricity at Work Act or some other law governing the sparks. I just apply the safety levels for toasters etc as the absolute minimum morally acceptable for patient equipment, EXCEPT where the MHRA or IEC have specified a more stringent standard. In other words I can see no practical circumdstance in which the level of care of a pump or monitor should fall below that you would give to a toaster, whatever the government experts may have omitted to specify.
As for the interest in results, a lot of techies debate whether thay should electricaly test infusion devices with a fluid filled set installed as an Applied Part or whether that is a waste of time. Its definitely a waste of time! I have 25 years of retained test results without a single Applied Part electical failure for an infusion device as proof of that. On the other had I've a few failures for monitoring equipment as absolute proof that they do need AP tests. So retaining the actual results has real usefulness. How else can you risk assess againt evidence that will stand up in court? A Pass/Fail flag is totaly unacceptable. Apart form any legal requirements for retention, a supervising technician has no hope whatever of checking the competency of a junior technician against their stored results if the AREN'T ANY stored results.
It's even possible to get beautifull EST passes for instance while not connecting the IUT to the tester correctly. You can get an earth bonding pass with the IUT plugged into a wall socket instead of the tester if theres a good electrical circuit in room. Looking over newbies test results can reveal a lot about what they are or aren't doing. Looking at little boxes ticked on forms that all say "Pass" tells you nothing.
If anyone asks, "How many EST failures did you get last year and why not just visual check ?" I COULD answer them if I could search within the EST text files electronicaly for the word "Failed". That's why I want a text search program or conversion to PDF.
All the best
Marc

Succinctly put, Sir!

(and I hope that we shall be forgiven for straying from the original topic somewhat)

I like the basis of the position you are taking ("as least as good as a toaster gets").

But ... wasn't there a large NHS hospital in London a couple of years ago who decided that their decades of electrical safety testing (and collection of results) had, on the whole, been a complete waste of time?

As far as I am aware, there is no legal requirement to retain test results, but I would be happy to defer on that point to anyone who can provide "chapter and verse", as it were.

But I take (and accept) your point about the supervision of junior testers!

Regarding "non-electrical applied parts", I too have seen all sorts of contortions taking place as a matter of routine in some biomed shops. How many times have I heard "this is how we do it here"? Again, I reiterate my usual moan about what's the point of having "governing bodies" like the MHRA (and any other) if they don't issue clear and binding directives (not mere guidelines) for all to follow? That should be the one and only pertinent question in court:- "were the directives being followed"? Yes? No? ... guilty as charged!

By the way, I'm sure that I am not the only one who would be interested in seeing a breakdown of your 25 year's worth of EST results, if you would care to summarise them.

Meanwhile, searching plain text files is dead easy, even TS.com (Text Search) as found in the 1984 version of Norton Utilities does that! In fact (looking at it now) it can search any file, complete disk, or even erased file space!

If you want something a little more, er ... modern, then I would again recommend Total Commander. I use it all the time, and reckon it's the dog's whatsits!

The electricians legislation I was thinking of was the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. That's what I used to justify routine EST during PPM. I was told it "didn't apply" to medical equipment but used it on the basis I stated above, The Risk Manager at that time decided not to argue the point in writing.
The MHRA document DB9801 Supplement 1 "Checks and Tests for New Equipment" quotes a major hospital EBME head bemoaning the fact that only 2 new items failed EST in the last 7 years. With new items its certainly well worth considering taking the manufacturer's EST printoff as proof of safety on new stuff (If you don't already).
Thanks I'll look at the DOS software. I like to keep it simple.
Sumarising the results would take too long. Sorry!
Marc

If you're into DOS, you may already be aware that there's a load of so-called legacy stuff available for free download off the web.

You could start by looking here for instance (NU45A.exe is there). And here's another handy one. Depending upon what it is you're actually trying to do, you may even find something useful here (cc-ps201.zip, for example ... but notice that these are Shareware offerings). As I say, there's a ton of this sort of stuff "out there". Why people insist on forking out mega £££'s is beyond me!

But, if you have a little free time to spare, may I suggest that it would be far more interesting to write your own file search program. I would recommend using C.

Turbo C 2.0 and Turbo C++ 3.0 (both for DOS, of course) are also available on-line (as are many other flavours of C ... the language that "real" programmers use)!

Quick question! Has anyone EVER seen an equipment EST potential failure trend over time?

Regards

Ed

As usual, we've touched on this before.

I think someone once claimed they had detected an insulation deterioration over time (and subsequently withdrew the equipment before it failed, became unsafe, or whatever), but I can't find it just now. But anyway, one "trend" detected in n thousand tests ... big deal (and so what)?

Agreed!

Ed

I don't know if you subscribe to the MHRA MDA notices but in regards to MDA/2008/027 on Eleganza and Praktika beds it was possible to spot the adapter leads gradually failing earth leakage.

Cheers Chris! Unfortunately they don’t send them to me here

Like a few others we have finally opted for a pass/fail record! I was just curious to know if there had been a real world example of "trend failing"! Obviously there has and it is noted! Would love to know how many people keep EST records? And how many are happy with a simple Pass/Fail?

Regards

Eddie

In the NHS their sent out officially via the central alerting system, but you can register to receive them directly

In some NHS biomed shops I have visited, the method of storing EST records appears to be the drawer on the test trolley being stuffed full of curled up paper strips containing results that are literally fading away! I wonder what the archeologists of future millennia will make of all that?

Meanwhile, regardless of the pros and cons of preserving EST data, as a "data" man myself I am more interested in how such data is best retained, rather than the if and the why. How long should such data be keep at hand? Does it get discarded when the equipment it relates to is retired ... or does it get retained for possible analysis some time in the future?

These days (unlike the pre-historic era wherein I cut my teeth), data storage is cheaper (£ per megabyte, or whatever) than it ever was, and methods of storing data are many and various. But, if even enthusiasts like Marcel can't find the time to wade through his 25 years worth of stuff, one wonders what use are all those full-up mega-drives going to be in, say, a hundred years from now.

In these modern times of "information overload", where (technically speaking) "everything is possible", I would suggest that we need to think long and hard about what information our databases contain, and retain. Either that or we shall need to construct huge "data vaults" in which to stack our old data (with back-ups, naturally), and of course, a database to catalogue it all!

As I write this I suspect that some bright spark will immediately come back and suggest archiving old data "out there" on the world-wide web ... OK perhaps, let it sit, forgotten, unwanted, unloved, and unlikely ever to be called up again on someone else's server in ... who knows, Beijing, Brighton, or Belize ... after all, "out of sight (site) is out of mind"!

Thinking about it a little more, I realize that possibly the best procedure would be to parcel up all test results into .xls format, and send them via email attachment once a year to the relevant government department. That way some over-paid and irresponsible idiot, having "downloaded" it all onto his (her) "memory stick" can safely get rid of it in the officially approved manner. That is, by simply leaving it on the bus, taxi or train on the way home!

One of the best NHS Med Eng Depts. I worked in, had a very simple but effective policy, it was called " Trust the Technician "

If the Tech said EST. OK. that was it, end of story.

Sorry Mate, but that doesn't address the points raised by Marcel (and others). What about proving (as in, during an enquiry, or in a Court of Law) that the tests were carried out? And what about being sure (as the senior man) that younger techs were in fact conducting the tests correctly?

Why, what was wrong with these leads (and why are adaptor leads being used anyway)? And what remedial action was taken, I wonder? Sounds to me like an example of two (three?) wrongs not making a right!

Chuckle

Come on, then, Eddie ... what's the policy on retaining EST results out there? Just "Pass/Fail"? Or does the tech glance at the previous results? Do you ever get asked to produce (or analyze) historical data? How long do you keep it (do you still have stuff going back to 1983)?

I think they tried to cut back on costs and used cheap mains cable, the insulation resistance was too low. As for why they used the adaptors, it's like quite a few items these days, a European lead was supplied and instead of fitting UK leads they just supplied a Euro to UK adaptor. As for what was remedial action was necessary the MDA with action required is here and it was a lovely time searching every single bed for an adaptor manufactured between the two dates specified.

Outrageous!

Well-Shin? Oh, obviously of the best quality, then, from such a well-known name. In my opinion, the suppliers (that is, the people taking the money) should have been told to come in and sort that lot out!

But (forgive me for asking), how come such rubbish gets through the in-house acceptance procedure in the first place? This is Britain ... we use BS-1363 mains plugs and sockets here!

Back "in my day" (that is, when safety was a practical issue to be taken seriously, and not just a matter of so-called "risk assessment"), "adaptors" (or what our American friends sometimes like to accurately describe as cheaters) in any shape or form were always actively discouraged. And quite rightly too.

Perhaps I should have said earlier "three prongs don't make a right"!

PS: having just glanced at the Medical Device Alert concerned, now I'm even more depressed! Just look at how (badly) they've laid out the "problem":-

"These adapter leads have an unacceptably low insulation resistance. This presents a risk of electrocution as 240 V can flow through the metal frame of the bed if an open circuit earth fault develops."

Mind you, if anyone has the time (and the inclination) for some real shockers, just take a look at this little lot! Actually, there are some "real beauts" in there (some may even seem almost unbelievable to the more inexperienced "younger viewer")!

If your asking how they get into hospitals you'll notice that the MHRA's advise is to replace them, no where do they condemn their use. These adaptors have become common practice although it does seem to be bringing Euro in via the back door. If on the other hand your asking how the problems weren't detected on acceptance test as mentioned they fail gradually overtime.

No, what I'm really saying is why weren't those adaptors binned, the Schuco plugs cut off the cable from the bed, and British BS-1363 plugs fitted? That way, they could just be plugged straight into the wall socket outlets as they should be. I think you'll find that the law in the UK requires that BS-1363 be followed! But, no doubt someone did a "risk assessment" to show that all's well.

I'm just a private individual, and do not hold any official post (except, of course, that of taxpayer). So I hope I'm free to express the view that (from what I've seen and heard) I've got absolutely zero confidence in the the MHRA, or the advice or "guidelines" they come up with. I have yet to hear of a case where they have been, shall we say, firm with the manufacturer or supplier. Someone please show me that I'm wrong!

Standards seem to falling every where I choose to look these days. Just to make things easier for people to sell foreign junk, as far as I can tell. Rest assured, that if I were in charge, there wouldn't be a single non-1363 plug anywhere in the hospital! And, why indeed should there be?

Apparently according to this items from Europe need either a BS-1363 plug OR a converter.



It seems not a lot of people noticed this creep in from the EC.

I believe they were originally fitted so that when the bed is pulled away, instead of the cable being torn out of the 13amp plug, the break is at the junction of the two cables. ie the socket connector just parts with no damage.

Once we have got to the stage where we have chefs "in charge" of hospital engineering departments (see one of recent posts under another thread), anything becomes possible.

Meanwhile, regardless of what others may decide is acceptable and what is not, I shall stick to my own standards (borne out of a traditional British engineering apprenticeship, followed by years of practical experience in the "real world"), as I always have.

Although it seems that "spin" has become firmly entrenched in contemporary politics, to my mind it has no place in the science that is engineering. We deal in facts, Sir! Facts, not goobledegook, tortuous logic, or so-called "political correctness" designed to allow the low standards of eastern and southern Europe (and in other places, farther afield ... but let's stick to Europe for now) to erode the engineering traditions of what once was the "workshop of the world"!

WOW !!!!

Sorry Mate, the "break-away" idea (popular as it may be in some quarters) just doesn't bear up to scrutiny, I'm afraid. Try it. It doesn't work!

No, it's a misconception. Or even an excuse for not bothering to fit a proper plug!

Have you been watching Nigella ?? then ?

Sorry Mate ... I don't follow. I do know who Nigella is, but I don't have a TV. And ... if I did, I certainly wouldn't waste a micro-second watching the likes of her!

Got to go old Buddy its the final of Strictly Any Mo Now Bye Yorl.

More of the same. How sad.

Oh yes they do, of the bed's I've seen that are pulled way still plugged in, on most Eleganza beds they either break-away or break at the converter. On the other hand items fitted with a 13amp plug sometimes break at the strain relief, due to the strength of the 13amp plug, requiring a complete rewiring!

What would happen if they used a standard BS-1363 to IEC C-13 lead? If staff insist on "forgetting" to disconnect before moving the bed, wouldn't that arrangement result in a safe disconnection as the straight pull at the C-13 plug caused separation at the C-14 socket? Why all the extra complication (and additional possible sources of faults) in employing umpteen connections? Believe me, the arrangement you're talking about is simply for the convenience of the manufacturer. All the rest is just humbug.

Remember too (with reference to the DTI document that you linked to earlier), that we are talking here about electrical safety in government hospitals (that is, establishments that ought to be above reproach in such respects), not the application of standards leveled at electrical junk of the type typically found in street markets!

Geoff
I think the sparks used to like the euro to BS convertor plugs because when (as frequently happens) a porter wheels away an electric bed without unplugging, instead of tearing the wiring out of the mains plug the euro plug would simply pull out of the convertor saving a rewire job.
Recently I've noticed that they seem to be fitting ty-wraps to hold the euro into the convertor, so I suppose there must have been some safety notice on NOT securing them.
Marc

Hi we at Kingston have been fortunate and had he funds to use Hugh Symmons (Tom Waller) and they scanned all my data (manuals , service sheets and other data to .pdf. although a large lump of data using this has dragged to the next century and then i got my admin person to cross refernace the data.
Brill but for the money 10 lge A4 files costs around 400pds.
PAul

we have used Hugh Symmons and they have converted all my archived data , service manuals , letters etc to .pdf and indexed this as well. Although i was hesitant and agree with MArk this could have been a nightmare i was pleased with the results. I have scanned around 400 manuals and 60 full large A4 folders and the cost outlay was 6-8k so not that bad as was expecting allllllot more.
Paul
i can send a sample and Tom wallers email address just email me at paul.kirkby@kingstonhospital.nhs.uk