Hi all, not like me to be negative, but I was browsing the ipem.ac.uk website and decided to register as and "Overseas Affiliate-ship" All is well until you reach the Proposers & Supporters! What if you don't know any "Senior Members" I suppose I can contact all the biomeds I know (so I will do it here!)
But heres my point!

I have a bona fide senior position (proof available)

I have a B.Eng Hons Degree (Liverpool University) (proof available)

I have 15 years experience,8 in the NHS, (again proof available)

Surely these quality's should suffice?

The trouble with working overseas is that, us ex-pats tend to lose touch!

Any help here is most welcome!

Regards

Ed

Eddie

You could PM Jim Methven, he's the IPEM Registrar and should be able to advise you.

Thanks Dicky, much appreciated!

Ed

But, dear Brother Eddie ... why would you want to register? Please, let's not go through all this again!

Hi Geoff I am already a member of the IEE, I usually get a quick response to all my inquiry's from them!

Unfortunately I have contacted the IPEM on a few occasions in the past and have never had a response! Even today 'Nothing?'

Please don't take this as knocking the org as I know very little about them! I am simply asking questions!

Ed

Knock away, Eddie, by all means (I'm not in any of them, myself)!

(perhaps IPEM were put off by the spelling! ... sorry, Mate, I just couldn't resist)

Dnot kwno waht yuo maen mait???

Ed

Next project ... a spell checker (but I think it may have already been done). How about a predictive text thingy like you find on mobile phones SMS (I can't get on with it, myself)?

I want to register as affiliate, but I don't even know two 'SENIOR' referees...

Eva forget it mate! I am a graduate British Biomedical Engineer working in Jeddah and they told me I must go to Riyadh (1000 Miles) and get the signatures from two Senior Saudi Members whom I have never met in my life! I fell off my flaming chair! I have been in the IEEE for 13 years and find them very professional so yes I do have a standard to measure against!

This boys club is a joke!

Eddie

PS you can always report them to the Engineering council, I did

Stop exaggerating Eddie. It's only 1,000 kilometers!

I would recommend the IEEE as well - very forces friendly!

DW - I might try this out and form my own cult sorry institute!

Sorry Geoff, Metric it is! I stand corrected!

Whilst I'm here there is also another society that operates like IPEM but you can be damned if I am taking my trousers off for anybody!

Eddie

DW:- Too Funny

Ed

Eddie
Well done on the "A little self indulgence", very competent. However, it's a bit too repetitive to become a chart hit I think!!!

Cheers mate, just a little jam! thats all!

Ed

Like geoff said "Why bother" if this is the case

"I must go to Riyadh (1000 Miles) and get the signatures from two Senior Saudi Members whom I have never met in my life!"

There not worth Being associated with unless they buck their ideas up.

Its seems a shame because although few members here have offered assistance I have had no help from actual IPEM bods-reps whatsoever? As I figure the majority of their members are here on ebme.co.uk so why no input or assistance from IPEM HERE? If you ask me they are obviously not bothered about new registrants? Also as most NHS trusts ask for registration to IPEM as a prerequisite for potential employment surely IPEM have a responsibility/Monopoly! to any prospective employee to add them to their register??? I would love to challenge this in a courtroom!

Eddie

PS I would love to know who is their governing body? Any ideas who to report them too?

How about the Local Authority Dustbin Wardens? They seem to be pretty thorough in their investigations!

Failing that, try Parliament (it's the highest court in the land, apparently).

For hundreds of years the House of Lords has been the final court of appeal, but a new "Supreme Court" is set to open in less than a year's time. All part of the continuing dismantling of the well established, proven, traditions of what used to be known as Great Britain (oh, sorry ... I meant "all part of the reform process deliberately voted for by the great masses of well-informed, intelligent voters" - NOT).

Most NHS trusts say that membership of a professional society is desirable not mandatory. If anything I've only seen a couple of trusts that actually said that registration or potential registration of the VRCT is mandatory which IPEM is a partner on. I certainly must admit that IPEM no longer seem to be interested in new registrants and these days if anybody is looking to join a professional society it's often the IET which has far more influence outside the NHS.

Ps. Geoff if you want to do any sort of investigation apparently you just sent in the boys in blue without permission (apparently that's what they do in parliament )

What makes us think that IPEM is no longer interested in new registrants? Have they enough already, then? What do they plan to do with them ... publish the list (of names) on the internet? Surely any professional society needs to grow in size? Or else, it must rest on it laurels, whither on the vine ... and decline into obscurity. Perhaps that's the plan!

Well when I first joined the NHS, IPEM was all they talked about, if you were to join a society that was the one to go for, where before I joined the NHS I'd never heard of IPEM. Quite a few jobs in the NHS you'd only hear of on their website. Since about two years they don't seem to be as active as they were, where as the IET have been taking more interest in the medical engineering sector and producing various drives to increase membership.

As I may have mentioned before, in years gone by I myself was a member of a few of these august bodies. SERT, for instance, used to churn out quite a useful journal, as I recall.

But, having seen the light and realised that they were all really just a waste of money, I binned the whole lot (it must have been about twenty years ago now).

Personally, I am dead against such "requirements" as a pre-requisite for employment. It all smacks of the "closed shop" mentality to me, and I doubt that it would stand up to legal scrutiny. After all, if it's illegal to turn someone down on grounds of religion, gender, political leanings, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, age (forgive me if I've missed anything out here ... I wouldn't want to offend anyone), then how can any potential employer turn you away for not having paid your £ 30 (or whatever it is)?

We're hardly talking about the Royal College of Surgeons et al here, after all.

If anything at the moment there really isn't such "requirements" since the VRCT is voluntary and any mentions of memberships of professional societies are desirable not mandatory. If anything other industries have requirements just think of Part P for the building trade so I doubt there would be any legal issues.

If anything for a lot of people the choice of professional body will often come down to who has the best publication and member benefits which unfortunately for IPEM the IET wins hands down with it's services including the online library. (and of course your free cup of tea or coffee if your passing Savoy Place )

If I were thirty-five years younger, and therefore (perhaps) "in the market" to join a professional body, then the IET would appear to be a serious contender.

I can't help thinking, though, that now we have the internet, the main use of such organisations (for me, often overseas back then, it was usually just the publication, as you mention) has been rendered null and void to a certain extent.

Oh, yes, things have taken a bit of a dive, I reckon, since the sad demise of the S.X-Ray.T (Cheers, Keith)!

I certainly won't be joining any more of these gangs now. And I'm already in the "Friendly Club" (... that's the Camping and Caravanning Club, for those who may not know)!

Has Eddie considered IET membership instead then? It might be that he can find IET sponsors easier than IPEM ones.

Not sure about that ... but I reckon I could get him in to the C&CC.

That might be funny if I knew what the C&CC was Geoff

Chris, I am already a member of IEEE and I always thought that that would cover me professionally? The only reason I was looking to IPEM was that it "appeared" to be a necessity to employment in the NHS? Not that I intend to return any time soon, but maybe one day hey! The only reason I'm shouting about it now is that the IPEM arrogance has really got my goat! IPEM sorry guys but you are the most arrogant unprofessional time wasters I have ever had the misfortune to deal with! Hang your heads in shame! There, now that feels better

Eddie

If you've got any sense, you'll never return to this country, Eddie. Believe me Mate, you're far better off out of it.

The only "positive spin" I can bring myself to put on the state of affairs we find ourselves in is that the so-called socialists, liberal do-gooders, and all the rest of the Turkey Army will be happy now how that the whole world is indeed becoming as one ... yes, the third world!


... including you, it would seem.

Some people go all out to achieve a professional qualification but eventually after getting the "professional" qualification, they failed to practise what they so desired to do.

I guess it is about Plan A, Plan B, etc.

True for some cases Roger but not me Im afraid, I graduated in "Medical Electronics and Instrumentation" and thats the field where I have always worked! I love my job, just a shame that a Boys Club Clique wont let me join? Any of these chaps/chapesses members here?

Eddie (black balled)

I can't understand why you would want to join, Mate. But each to his own, I guess. Who's that bloke, by the way?

Geoff (black listed)

Me actually Geoff. Yes I am a member here too! If any one has any IPEM issues then feel free to mail me.

Ah, ah! Fame at last! And deservedly so, no doubt.

And thanks for coming on here to respond to comments in this thread.

As I say, I'm unlikely to be joining myself, but I would be interested to hear (as, I'm sure, would many others) how you would respond to suggestions of inactivity etc. on the part of IPEM.

I get confused on the whole registration thing anyway. Which is the best one to join, go for the VRTC or straight for Ipem?

When registration becomes compulsary and the do-good brigade rig everything so you need a masters degree to tie a shoe lace, forcing our entire profession to be staffed by transitional students, will there be a whole new club to join and new hoops to jump through anyway?

Masters wear loafers!

Well I've just received my annual invoice from IPEM, it's such a pity that it's the only time they contact me...

My problem is that I have this : "Must be registered with the National Register of Clinical Technologists" in my job description.
I wonder if I'd be sacked if I failed to pay?

Happy days.

There's only one way to find out the answer to that one!

Excuse my ignorance, Ivor ... but you say "that it's the only time they contact" you. Is there no periodical publication, then?

In response to Geoffs request of 9:44 today.

Lets have a try.

IPEM is busy in many areas fighting for you, we currently have a heavy involvement in the Modernising Scientifc Careers Program, - yes even if you don't like it - we here in the UK in this job are for the purposes of the NHS classified as Scientfic Staff. If you want to know what it is all about then log to the DOH website - this is not the place or the thread for a discussion on that topic. We are taking the opertunity to bring this debate to peoples attention at as many meetings as possible, as those who attended the last IPEM Medical Engineering Study Day can atest.

Next we have a number of groups involved in all areas of healthcare science and engineering called special interest groups. These groups exist to promote best practice, organise meetings in peoples areas of interest. They also help comment on national documents, form working groups to create reports and other documentation - 2 recent examples are the ipem publications on risk management and electrical safety testing.

We publish a number of periodicals that members can subscribe to as well as our regular members newsletters and our in house quaterly journal, to say nothing of our placement circular advertising the latest jobs available in this area.

We have members sitting on BSI working groups and committees helping to format the standards that we are all using everyday.

We run regular study days for members the next medical engineering one will be in July of next year. We run a whole series of regular meetings allowing members to present on work in their areas of interest.

We did a large ammount of work on your behalf on the National Occupational Standards and the initial AfC role profiles.

We have a recognised training scheme covering all areas - yes including this one! We work to establish and support in-house training centres. We have a network to support our trainees and we provide moderation and support to trainees on our programms. We are also work to n accredit courses and HEI provision in this area. We run a very good CPD scheme and we are an awarding body from ECuk for Eng Tech, I eng and CEng. We are also an awarding body from the science council for Charted Scientist qualifications.

Now let us address a couple of other areas. There seems to be confussion surrounding the VRCT and IPEM. THese are two totally different bodies. The VRCT exists as a body in its own right. Yes IPEM does support it, as does the IET and ART not because we want to own it, but because all 3 professional bodies belive in what the VRCT is trying to do. All that IPEM does simply because we have the capcity to do so is provide admin services to the VRCT in much the same way as you and I provide services to any of our clients. You DO NOT have to be a member of IPEM to be a Member of the VRCT and visa versa.

Please can we seporate this discussion into IPEM registration and VRCT registration. Taking Ivors point the VRCT will contact you once per year to remind you that your dues to that body are due. All their other advice is provided on line - go and have a look. If you are a member of IPEM itself and only hearing from IPEM once a year then please let me know because you should as a member get something from us at least once a month!

IPEM itself is a professional body and yes it does have membership standards and requirements much the same as anywhere lese in life. But these standards should not be a bar to membership of IPEM or particiaption in its activities. Like anything else what you get out depends on what you put in.

Hope this helps any one with any questions, comments etc is welcome to mail me direct. If don't know the answer then I'll find you someone who does.

Paul.

Thank you for that, Paul.

Geoff,

So any of that get you put your money where your mouth is then Geoff? Someone of your views could be of use to me on our training side.
Paul.

Thanks Paul, I didn't know this was the case at all.

Other than to satisfy my employer, I had absolutely no idea why I pay an annual subscription which comes in a prepaid envelope with IPEM as a return address.....

Nor did I realise that there is information on line which may be useful to us.

Thanks for the email Paul, your help here is most appreciated!

Kind regards

Eddie

What's that ... you want me to send money? No chance of that happening, I'm afraid.

But if you need anything from me (apart from money, that is), my email address is well known.

Meanwhile, I'm pleased that it looks like Eddie's problems may have been sorted.

I don't need to be one either!

Looks like we'll be the only ones left out in the cold, then, Roger (although perhaps I should point out that, in my own case, that's hardly anything new)!

Well since there is NO "National Register of Clinical Technologists" only the voluntary one, they'd have a hard job making this stick

But on the down side, the Modernising Scientific Careers proposals have 3 stages of registration included in the current lay out! There is no information in the proposals about "Grandparenting" clauses or how (or indeed if) the voluntary register will match into this, though it is almost certain that "Clinical Technologist" will not become a registered and protected title.
I would suspect, from what I've been able to find out so far, that the equivalent new title would be "Healthcare Science Practitioner" - to all intents and purposes capped at Band 6. Further progression would require enhanced registration as a "Healthcare Scientist"

The "The Future of the Healthcare Science Workforce
Modernising Scientific Careers: The Next Steps
A Consultation" document is well worth reading if you have any interest at all in the future (or lack of) of medical technology careers.

I take it Paul that looking at the proposals those who are currently classed as "Clinical Technologists" will be registered but as "Healthcare Scientist Practitioner" with a larger group of people. The case against engineering disciplines making their own application to become registered was that there wouldn't be significant numbers to become registered. Therefore I would imagine that the HPC would be more willing to register "Healthcare Science Practitioners" than they would "Clinical Technologists". Hopefully those on the voluntary register of clinical technologists will automatically become Healthcare Scientist Pracitioners

I attended a IHEEM lecture recently, basically because our business spans equipment and infrastructure services I attended with our expert to learn more

The lecture on decontamination equipment, new HTM requirements was first class, some of the most learned and educated experts in the land delivered an entertaining and informative series of seminars.

Over the years I have laid out a fortune on membership of professional institutes and as a business I will continue to support them.

Two things for me were clear

1. The DH speaker in no uncertain terms made it quite clear that regarding policy, IHEEM was only one of many stakeholders, and indeed an interested party like industry with its own bias, point of veiw and aims.

Basically the DH advisor cast doubt in the minds of many as to why the AP or AE (D) status for instance relied on membership of a particular professional institute, why are certain bodies still perceived as rule makers and enforces, nothing could be further from the truth apparently, DH would like to remove myth and mystery by asking for feedback from all, whoever you belong to

2. The IHEEM education chair indicated to me that IHEEM was less relevant to the medical engineering community than I thought it might be, he even went on to point out the benefits of IPEM membership, this I thought strange for a professional institute that claims to represent those involved with healthcare engineering and a instute that absorbed the Institute of X Ray Technology amongst others.

In the IHEEM monthly going back some now, I remember a great paper by Paul Robbins and often see articles about medical equipment.

Anyway, I will continue to support professional institutes, why, because I think they are a good thing and sometimes a very good thing, you tend to get out what you put in if not for any other reason from time to time they bring together great people that do great things together and sometimes its so special that you can tell your kids or grandkids about.

As one Involved in the mentoring of others and young engineers education, I like that about the institute.

At IPEM I am sure their aims are noble and representative, more so than IHEEM it appears anyway, they try to cater for all and at all levels, they will never please everybody, but they are trying to and that says a lot, does it not.

Darren

Good old Darren. As enthusiastic as ever!

Even when it was more appropriately known as the Institute of Hospital Engineering, IHEEM never really served biomed very well. Back then, you got a biomed-related article in the journal perhaps once every couple of years, if you were lucky.

These days, outside of the UK, no-one even knows what "Estates" means. And why indeed should they? It's a strange bit of NHS-speak. Just in case NHS-types aren't aware of the alternatives, "hospital engineering departments" overseas are often known as:-

Facilities (as in Facilities and Maintenance: F&M)
Engineering (nice one)
Utilities (as in Utilities and Maintenance: U&M)
M&E (Mechanical and Electrical engineering)
Building Services ... etc.

I have also known "Technical Services" (which sounds reasonable to me), with biomed a part of it.

What's wrong with calling the Hospital Engineer the, er ... Hospital Engineer? Who knows, the position could even be filled occasionally by an ex-biomed. Rather than the more usual ex-boiler fitter, electrician, or (as I have mentioned recently), chef!

All though this may be true, as I have said time and time again, it's the function of the person that will possibly become registered.
This will be backed up with the statement
" Clinical tech. or anyone who carries out the function of the Clinical Tech. is required to be registered, and no registered clinical tech must knowingly work with an unregistered person carrying out this function"
This is simular to wording they have used in the past.
This shows it makes no difference what you call yourself.

My wife is a dental Nurse but you still have to be registered to be a chairside assistant, a dental assistant or any other variant to do the job legally, and the dentist is just as likely legally to be blame for permitting the unregistered person to act as a dental nurse as the un registered dental nurse.

I don't want to start a fight but, this whole issue of registration is a load of c**p. It will only work if everyone is treated equally. Don't forget that there is a very wide variety of pople in our line of work. No one model of registration will work. The only suitable form of "registration" would be to qualify as Eng Tech, IEng or CEng (in the UK). Is a Philips Engineeer working on Ultrasound scanners a Healthcare Scientist Practitioner?

Anyway, Happy New Year one and all!!

Now for us I can't see "no registered clinical tech must knowingly work with an unregistered person ..." ever working. It does seem what the HPC doesn't understand they regulate, but I could only see this applying to people working in the NHS. Otherwise all service personnel from companies that make medical equipment, who come onto NHS property would need to also be registered. Hence a Philips Engineer would need to be a Healthcare Scientist Practitioner.

Also I understand that the plan was that registration would occur above band 5 and that those below band 5 would either be trainees or assistances. If the above statement is correct would those above band 4 not work with those below!

I just knew when Eddie started this thread it would go on and on with the same tiresome BS!

Whoever these HPC people are, it sounds to me like they've got too much time on their hands. Are these NHS people? If so, it's a pity they don't apply themselves to helping the sick and needy, just as (presumably) they are paid to do! Surely there's enough there to keep them occupied?

In the real world, there's no such thing as a "Healthcare Scientist Practitioner". The terminology doesn't even make sense!

As I keep on saying (and like to believe that most agree), we are Engineering Technicians who happen to be working in the so-called "Healthcare Industry"! In the UK, we are (already) regulated by the Engineering Council (who, for reasons best known only to themselves, these days like to be called ECUK). So if you're a member say, of IHEEM or IPEM, then you're already under the ECUK umbrella. How many times do you need to be registered, or regulated? And who's to say that the "rules" of one body doesn't conflict in some way with those of another?

Who are these people trying to "protect" anyway? The patients? Don't make me laugh. Anything that we could impose upon some poor soul lying there pales to insignificance when compared to what the medics seem willing to inflict. Just keep up with the national news stories covering the NHS for evidence of that.

Meanwhile, those in our midst who are frustrated medics should go away and get trained as nurses, physicians, paramedics or whatever else it is they fantasize about being!

I assume that was meant as a joke or did you really not know who the HPC are!

Don't know, and don't want to know! Government quangoes are two-a-penny in this country. In ten years time, they will be history, I wouldn't be surprised.

But thanks for the link. I see:-

Arts therapists, Biomedical scientists, Chiropodists/podiatrists, Clinical scientists, Dietitians, Occupational therapists, Operating department practitioners, Orthoptists, Paramedics, Physiotherapists, Prosthetists/orthotists, Radiographers, Speech and language therapists.

... but no sign of Engineering Technicians (thankfully).

PS: the poor (inconsistent) use of capital letters is "theirs", not mine.

This is what we are up against in the NHS Geoff. Too many people interfering. I don't think that they have too much time on their hands it's just that they are in non-jobs! A major issue in the NHS. I'm not for sacking people without good cause but there must be a good 5 to 10% of staff that could be lost without compromising patient safety, all in management and admin support (of management).

Like many, I should imagine, I keep a weather eye on NHS issues in the "media". Although I don't work for the NHS myself, it is still our NHS, is it not?

As we all know, there has been, and continues to be, an almost endless stream of "negative press" about the NHS (justifiably, by the look of it). One of the nice things (I think) about the internet news sites is that many afford the opportunity for the "viewers" to leave their comments. And now many thoughtful people are asking questions like:-

"After sixty years of a National Health Service, how come the British people don't appear to be such an healthy crowd (when compared with other nations)"?

"How come people get a better service in France ... or Poland"?

"With more money than ever being pumped into the NHS, how come we keep hearing these horror stories"? ... I'll spare you the links, but they are there for all to see on the news sites every day.

"Why do we keep hearing about NHS staff raking in obscene amounts of money, and working double shifts etc.?" ... ditto.

"Would it not be better to privatise the whole thing, and simply pay our contributions into an insurance scheme?" ... and stuff like that.

I'm afraid that the NHS is largely perceived as the last bastion of the fat public service type of organisation (if indeed, organisation is a word that fits), complete with gravy trains, jobs for life and all the rest.

It seems to be me that there are far too many "non-patient care" types ensconced in our hospitals. And even some (well paid) nursing staff who (probably as a result of so-called "higher education") adopt the view that they are "above" the more "unsocial" aspects of caring for the sick and needy. If they don't really want to be nurses, perhaps they would be happier as sales reps, or whatever (a similar logic should apply to biomeds).

Time for a major sort out? Of course. But will it happen? Don't hold your breath. There are simply too many snouts in the trough.

I was very careful to not have an opinion in my post on the 30th. Just state the facts as anyone can find them.

Yes I think it will cause problems, and the pen pushers know it will. In fact I’m sure they will get a bit fat pay rise out of it some how, or at least an assistant.

The original post was about the value for money aspect of the IPEM. It then had gone down the route of job requirements, imposed by the pen pushers.

I think this situation we are in, is who to join if anyone. Until clear lines are drawn. There are going to be differing opinions of whether we should or not, or whether we need to or not, or indeed whether these points are in fact the same.

Refusing to comment on the situation just stifles the debate and allows the state to make a decision on the subject without a voice from us. So I must continue to voice my opinion as often in as many places as possible.

MY opinion is there should be a register and there should be different levels of equipment at which people are rated e.g. Anaesthetics, ventilation or some other denomination.
Fail the register and the person would be excluded from that category or area of work, possibly the lot, depending on the severity of the cock up.
More lines of punishment, without loss of employment. With clear levels of competency and a progression route back from the edge of losing skills to other industries.

Competency could be manufacturer certification on the equipment within a category. Or successful pass performance at an assistant level with other registered staff counter signing of sufficient aptitude.
The closest I can find to this is the VRCT system, so the value of the organisation to me is high, and the low registration cost is affordable, and in some cases claimable.
The IPEM subscribes to the Uk Spec system which is good, but this is not tailored to our industry. The information services the IPEM offer is relevant and very good and this I believe is what makes them relevant to us but weather it’s enough to cover subscription or not is the question?

"Would it not be better to privatise the whole thing, and simply pay our contributions into an insurance scheme?" ... and stuff like that.

44 million plus citizens uninsured in the US and double the adminstrative costs compared to single payer health systems elsewhere comes to mind.

The NHS is the system in the UK. Here we pay National Insurance Contributions. So, no-one should be "uninsured". It's pretty clear that successive governments haven't done a very good job of managing the Health Service, so perhaps the time has come to take a look at other ways of doing things. Remember too that much of the business of government these days is carried out by so-called "Agencies". Most (if not all) of which are actually private companies under contract to the government.

I have personal experience of involvement in Operations and Maintenance contracts at government hospitals overseas. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the answer to all the NHS's problems, but I do believe that it should be considered.

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with IPEM Registration!

... and who is to take on the role of Judge, Jury, and Executioner?

In case of mishap, surely we should be closing ranks, not punishing people? After all, that's what the medics do!

No, in cases of (as you put it) "cock up" ... why can't it be "lessons have been learned"?

What's that saying about "Sauce for geese"?

What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. ... that's the one!

The NHS will always be a complete failure or falling to pieces, at least that's what the politicians will have you to believe. If good things was heard about the NHS, Politicians would actually have to work for a living! Any way next election the NHS should get a rest bit, Gordon's been and f****d up the economy. To be fair to the poor guy he's just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it won't matter to the Conservatives.

As for other ways, watch Sicko and see just how good a profit driven healthcare system is!

Who mentioned "profit driven"? And, I must admit that I don't know what "Sicko" is ... a TV programme? Who needs that when I can (and have) seen it all for real?

I won't respond to your comments about our politicians (on the grounds that this forum is not really the place for that).

It's Michael Moore's documentary on the US health system. Apparently Guantanamo bay is the only place on US soil with free healthcare so Michael Moore takes a bunch of American's there to see if he can get them treatment.

There's no such thing on this earth as "free healthcare". It all has to be paid for somehow, by someone, somewhere!

If, for instance, people had to choose between the latest gee-whiz "must have" (plasma TV?), or overseas holiday, and, say, their cataract surgery, that might not be a bad thing. It would drive home the realities of the situation, and enhance the value of what was being done.

Like all "free" systems, the NHS (and the welfare benefits system) is open to abuse. Both already go way beyond what was originally conceived.

Now that analogy always worried me what happens to those who can't choose any of them? If a patient can't afford to complete their treatment could we possibly see a 21st century version of this lady but with something even worse?

Should we not treat all citizens regardless of their ability to pay, or should we welcome back diseases like Polio or one's like Ebola?

Do I really have to spell it out?

We all pay into National Insurance. This should be (but isn't) a fund. Everybody gets the treatment they need, when they need it. No-one would be turned away. Payment is drawn from the fund. The difference would be that the person's individual account (within the fund) would be debited, and they would be made aware of this (and thereby recognize and appreciate more fully its value). Depending upon how many "credits" each person is granted as the scheme commences, a person may well fall into debt. Ways would be available top-up the account (including from the "benefit" system). But an individual would be encouraged to add funds to his (her) own account, just as those outside the PAYE system top up their National Insurance Contributions at present.

... something like that.

I have heard about a suggestion that every child be granted (at birth) so many "credits" into his (her) "benefits" account. As they progress through life, that account (which would be interest bearing - not that this would mean much at present) would be debited as "government services" were paid for (including fines, I might add). Each five or ten years, the taxpayer may bung increments into everyone's account, at a rate set at each Budget (or whatever). Upon retirement, whatever was left would become a pension. Personally, I like this idea. It rewards people who take responsibility, whilst allowing the dross of society to squander their "credits" on clean syringes, so-called "rehabilitation", fines, and any other "service" they might require.

It is well known that a large percentage of a person's "entitlements" are often expended in the last few weeks of life. Is that wise? Somehow, I doubt it. What if I elected to spend mine on getting my teeth sorted out at age 57? Patient choice? Yet another cliché.

Or would you rather than us taxpayers pick up the tab for everyone in the world to come to Britain for hospital treatment?

I've got a better one, if they couldn't top up those accounts they can apply to the EBME.co.uk fund which would be donations from members of this site. With this money the sick could use it as travel expenses to travel to the home of Geoff Hannis and pass on their diseases. Thus hopefully if your scheme ever came into effect you'd probably be the poorest man in Britain and hopefully less inclined to come up with these silly ideas.

Any donations?

These are not my ("silly") ideas, but those that I have heard about. Such as these are under consideration by those charged with providing a service of ever-increasing (ever-demanding) proportions.

Meanwhile, what's your idea? Just to let things drag on as they are now, I suppose?

Meanwhile ... back to IPEM.

Is that your response to all of the feedback comments, Gav, or only the one?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "single payer health systems", Mate.

It's a response only to the quotation that I copied and pasted. We have a single payer system in the UK whereby National Insurance is payed through the taxation system. The US is the opposite as citizens pay health insurance as part of their particular terms of employment (a 'good job' must include private healthcare insurance)with the exception of Medicare and Medicaid that attempts to plug the unfair gaps.

In the UK, National Insurance Contributions are paid in part by the (working) individual, and in part by the employer. Self-employed people have to bear the total amount prescribed to them. These monies do not actually go towards any particular service provided by the government, but just get tossed into the revenue pot, just like all other government receipts (of which, as we all know, there are many and various).

Personally, I would much prefer a more direct and transparent mechanism of funding the Health Service. That is, so people could see how the taxes they pay are being put to (hopefully) good use.

Regarding the healthcare system in the USA, is it unfair? I don't know much about it, so I can't really say. But what I do know is that some of the finest hospitals in the world happen to be there, and some of the best medical equipment is manufactured there. There is Medicare and Medicaid (as you say), so some sort of provision if obviously being made for all and sundry.

This is so but does not belie the fact monies contributed by individuals and employers gets funnelled through a central system however non transparent to fund a national system of healthcare for all who need it (who doesn't?).

I certainly wasn't undervaluing the high quality of many of their hospitals or their medical equipment manufacture. That's a give and besides the point. Unfortunately the expense and inequity of the system has led to a great many bankruptcies (long before the credit crunch). The debate for a so called single payer healthcare system in the US has been gaining apace over the last few years and is reflected by the prominence of politicians like Obama and Clinton (whatever their other weaknesses).

The provision of Medicare and Medicaid only mitigates a unethical system of provision which isn't on the whole accepted in other developed countries. Afterall, the US military services provide free healthcare to their personnel even after they retire from service. This is deemed acceptable even though it is sustained by government money - shock horror.

Bankruptcies? Of whom? People struggling to pay medical bills? But surely you're not saying that they would be better off without Medicare and Medicaid?

Yes, the US has a fine organization known as the Veterans' Administration. It's a pity we haven't introduced it into the UK. Here our wounded servicemen get taken around the back of NHS hospitals so as not to "upset" or offend the civilians. And don't even ask about how ex- military people get treated in the UK. We used to have a handful of military hospitals, but I believe that they're all gone now.

The world would be a much better place if every man, woman and child anywhere and everywhere (in the world) had free access to the best possible healthcare (plus clean drinking water, decent sanitation, and all the rest). But I don't see that coming to pass anytime soon. At present mankind hasn't really moved on much from what we have been doing since the stone-age ... that is, killing one-another. Usually, I might add, in the name of ancient quarrels - hatred is probably a more accurate word - that go back thousands of years, and have no real relevance in the present day (apart, that is, from "keeping the plebs in their place").

But I can tell that we're not "singing from the same hymn sheet", you and I, so I'm going to get on with some work now. There's much to be done!

Now you really haven't seen Sicko have you, pity that the 9/11 rescue workers don't get the same treatment and no surprise that Cuba gave them free treatment. Nice publicity stunt for Castro!

Ah yes I'm wondering if perhaps the first people to come up with that idea didn't have a final solution The problem with that idea would be that those born mentally handicapped and children with leukemia would be penalised for either being born or just being sick. As for pensions your scheme would turn the pension system into a lottery for those who are lucky to have not had a day sick in their lives.

In your finally paragraph you've also brought a separate issue into play that of health holidays. My idea would be to make it a legal requirement for visitors to the UK to have medical insurance. Also limit the issue of visa's on arrival in the UK to a small number of countries (ie EU/USA) and require the rest to get a visa at a British embassy. Then if anybody arrives in the UK without the necessary documents fine the airline that permitted them to fly just like truck drivers get fined if stowaways are found in their trucks.

I'd also send representatives of the UK customs and immigration service to Australia, if we had their border control it would certainly improve things.

As for the NHS, as I mentioned a lot of changes seem to have been made more for politicians political agendas than to help the NHS. So I'd grant the NHS more independence from government so it can get on with it's job without having to play politics.

Yeah, let's bring back transportation to Botany Bay. You can be assured of my vote, Chris!

It's nice that you've mentioned the Wakefield saga (under the Disease thread), though ... is that long drawn out investigation the kind of thing that IPEM, VRCT et al are looking forward to ... but for biomed techs?

You do really live in a biomed bubble don't you! Apparently Australia's immigration policy is considered so strict that it's considered nearly racist and xenophobic! No over straying or secret health holidays to Australia!

Considered by who ... illegal migrants?

The thing is, Chris ... this forum is supposed to be about biomed (believe it or not). There are other forums (many, in fact) available for political "discussions".

But (meanwhile), the word "racist" is very much over-used, in my opinion. Abused, in fact. It gets spewed out every time some foreigner doesn't get quite the easy ride that s/he was hoping for (or promised), and usually by bigoted idiots who are more often than not guilty of so-called racism themselves. Frankly, I believe Australia can adopt whatever policies it chooses. It's their country. It's a pity our own policies here in the UK aren't less open to abuse. Was that a racist comment? Dear me, here I am slapping my wrists!

I know the forum is about biomed, but after not recognising another common knowledge fact I thought perhaps you live in a bubble or you've had a accident sometime ago and got your fingers glued to the keyboard

Which gem did I miss, I wonder? I see so much crap on my various screens (and not all on this forum, surprisingly). The "secret" of dealing with all this information overload is the ability to sift through it quickly, and reject what appears to be dross (that is, the vast majority).

We all live in our own little "bubble" (as you call it). That is, we all have our own version (perception) of reality. One man's "fact" is more often than not another man's "fiction". But the enlightened person strives to keep an open mind. Objectivity, I think its called.

Anyway, what this thread is supposed to be about is "IPEM Registration".

With IPEM registration what does the "Interview" consist of as mentioned in the joining instructions? Has anyone any information on this? Would joining the IET be a better alternative?