Hi

I'm a medical device trainer who works for the medical physics department. I have a technical background NOT a nursing one. Is there anyone out there with a job decription for this role that achieved more than a band 5. I am currently awaiting review and I need some pretty good ammunition as this Health Board seems hell bent on forcing us to go to surrounding areas to get a decent banding. Stupid as I am...I like my job and don't want to leave!

Thanks

Helen

Hello Helen,
The Medical Device training team here is part of Clinical Engineering which is part of Medical Physics.
We have not come from a nursing background (OK in my past I was a nurse but the post is not derived from nursing, and I have worked in Clinical Engineering for over 18years)
We fought a long battle but have two band 7 posts and an 8a - although that post has other duties outside training.
It was considered that the trainer post was equivalent to a team leader, i.e. someone with a lot of experience who had moved on from a senior technician.
We had a look around other trainers in the Trust - most of which are nursing based - and they were mainly on band 7.

Prior to AfC the posts were MTO not nursing grades.

PM or email me if you want to know more.
Robert

And for completeness of reply: we have appointed two new applicants to a lower grade as they did not have sufficient experience/knowledge to be appointed at band7. But that does not mean the post is not banded as such.

Hi Helen,

A Medical Device Trainer (just like Robert was saying)is someone who has many years of experience in the Biomedical Instrumentation and has been exposed to the day to day problems within the hospital. He is someone of a senior position (ours would be a post of Biomedical Engineer)who can impart the theoretical knowledge and hands on experience to the juniors.

Regards

I think the only ones i've seen on higher grades have management responsibility for something else like medical equipment library or risk management.

I think there is a great deal of variation not only in job content but also in the qualifications and experience required.

A degree in physics is essential so that should make it automatically a band 6.

I have heard of band 6/7/8a but I haven't heard of anyone else who got as low as a 5. I'm surprised to hear that. What kind of training do they do?

What makes you say that, Helen?

I would have thought that three prime qualities are actually required in this role:-

1) An adequate technical knowledge of the kit in question.
2) A good understanding of its clinical application.
3) The ability to impart this knowledge when training users.

PS: welcome to the forum.

Wiseman thinks alike! Cheers

Hi,
I am a medical device trainer, i am a nurse and i have absolutely no medical engineering experience nor qualification at all. I am a band 6 sister in critical care.
My job description is varied (3 pages long in print)
My role is diverse and incorporates much more than just training as my title suggests.
Although i didnt know this when i took on the role to be honest.
What is it specifically about the role that you want to know?

It seems that every one has a different opinion of what the job entails and of the requirements and quals needed for the role!
Its good to hear from other device trainers as there are none in the North west where i work, so i have no one to talk to about the job.
I have a million questions myself!

Dear Quinny,

I don't have any questions for you. That's our opinion of what it takes to be a Medical Device Trainer. Perhaps we are looking more from the perspective of a biomed engineer whose requirements as mentioned by Geoff, should match that of the 3 prime criteria. But looking from the nursing perspective, training of nurses to handle the operation (clinical application)of the kit and a little on the basis maintenance and care, fits the bill as it is strictly application and superficial maintenance. In our setting, they are called Nurse Educator and they only trained nurses on the application and the operation of the kit (basic care and maintenance are included). I have also come across a nurse whose main responsibility is to set up the ventilator for use in the ITU, much like our respiratory technician (clinical role only)whose job is to ensure there will be enough ventilators around in the ITU, test the function of the ventilator before each use.

I hope you find your job challenging but 3 page-length JD may seem too lengthy.

Regards

Roger, Thanks for the reply.
On the ICU where i work we always had "technicians" who were theatre practitioners to set up vents, pre use test them, humidifiers, heamofiltration, bronchs etc. They were our back bone.
Then they were taken off us.
So now all of the staff nurses are trained to set up every piece of equipment for themselves. They are fully trained in troubleshooting this equipment as well, we are now self sufficient.

The training side of my my job is to train new starters on this, to introduce and train all staff on the use of new equipment, refresher training on the kit for any one who wants it. My asset register is HUGE and i have aprox 75 nurses in my dept, so this is a major component of my job.
To add as well that my job would be perfect if all i had to do was set up ventilators for people!
My 3 page jd is lengthy, this is because there is much more to it than what you apear to think from your above post. From what you say, my job seems to encompass what a biomed engineer,nurse educator AND a respiratory technician all do. This makes me question my own banding, a band 6 for doing 3 peoples job....my employer has got a bargain with me havent they?!
Its not just the training, i am heavily involved in procurement as well as taking on a management role, taking charge of the ICU when needed or simply working in the numbers when they are short of staff (which is frequent).
Do you see my problem? I have no yard stick with which to compare my jd as there are no other medical device trainers in the northwest of England.
This is why i am so interested in your opinions on what constitutes the role.
I just want to put across that you dont have to be a biomed in order to do this job, but it all depends on who is your target audience. I train nurses, are you looking at the training of engineers only? (i think that i am thinking "nursing" too much, this is a biomed website so possibly hadnt thought of it from your point of veiw...sorry)
Again, thanks for your reply, its great to chew the fat about this at long last.

You are wearing a tall hat. Looking at your responsibilities, it fits into the role of a divisional head but you shouldn't be doing it alone. Delegation of work is necessary if you want to see productivity. I do not know if your institution has constraint over manpower or you are just doing everybody's job with one single salary. Worth thinking how to get this around.

Regards

Interesting stuff, Quinny (if you don't mind me chipping in). But from what you say, two points jump out immediately:-

1) You say that your technicians were "taken off us".
2) Your are obviously seriously overloaded yourself.

... from which I can only conclude that there's something seriously wrong with the equipment management where you are! Sounds to me like you (and your managers) need some advice (as in, help)!

Dont mind you chipping in at all Geoff, good to see you.
Just clarify for me, what you mean by advice/help?

Do you have any useful suggestions for me? I am open to your experienced eye and would welcome help (please).
At a bit of a loss, (woods & trees spring to mind!)

Quinny, as I have recently indicated in another thread, I do not believe that a biomed engineering technician is the right person to conduct user (nurses etc.) training on medical equipment, and never have. The role of the biomed is fixing the kit, and providing technical support to the (clinical) users.

During my years as a hospital biomed, I never "taught" users myself (beyond the "this is how you switch it on" stage), but have often stood in the background to give (moral) support to nurse tutors and the like. I have related elsewhere about connecting up baby ventilators in the middle of the night, but this was more on humanitarian grounds (as in, needs must) than as a matter of policy. I have also been present on a few occasions when there was blood spurting about, and voices had been raised, but even then it was just a matter of my pointing (plus a few choice words of clear "guidance"). Frankly, I regard any "clinical input", and certainly any patient contact, by a biomed tech as unethical, and something to be avoided.

So, that’s where I’m coming from. Nurses get equipment training from Device Trainers, Nurse Tutors et al (and not biomeds). Meanwhile, biomeds fix the kit, and support the users (and the Trainer) (being more than enough to keep them busy). And (again as I have said previously) these days, I believe that the Device Trainer (and, by the way, the Equipment Librarian) should come under the Medical Engineering umbrella (if only to restrict reversion to nursing roles in time of nursing staff shortages ... as you have already mentioned).

... and I would say that I would expect that nurses or ex-nurses are most likely to make the best Device Trainers (on the grounds of their knowledge of the clinical applications, plus the fact that they must have empathy with their students), whilst successful Equipment Librarians have been known to come from a variety of backgrounds (nurses, biomed techs ... and hospital porters)!

You make it pretty me that you have been over-loaded. A three-page job description (even if stuffed with AfC Baboon Speak) sounds a bit excessive, I must say. It sounds like you’re filling two or three roles, in actual fact (why did they get rid of those "techs" that you mentioned ... to "save" money?). Your role needs to be restricted to what any a single person can reasonably manage. What is your manager saying about all this? Is s/he happy about the fact that you’re so heavily burdened?

My personal advice to you would be to decide what it is you actually want to do (within your present remit), and then concentrate on that. Meanwhile (having now been in post long enough to comment), I would document your concerns, and aspirations, to your boss ... with emphasis on points like "how do they manage if you’re off sick" (or, indeed, on well-deserved holiday)? Perhaps you need to make a case for assistance (as in, having more than one of you)!

And don’t forget Hannis’ Two Golden Rule Rules on user equipment training:-

Monkey see ... monkey do!
and...
Tekra ya 'alam khumar!

Thanks Geoff, you make interesting and valid points.
I especially like the suggestion that you make re the device trainer coming under the biomed umbrella rather than intra departmental to stop me from getting dragged into the nursing side of things. Although this is in my JD to do a clinical shift a week. (not 2 or 3 which can happen)
As far as i can gather, the techs were dispensed with because of cost. They were redeployed back to theatres.
Thinking about your advice, i am kind of half way there, however what i need to do is create a paper trail as it were to ensure that my concerns are documented. I havent had a day off sick for years, and do have a backlog of work when i have been on A/L.
I know what comment i will get though from my manager...."delegate more". This i aim to do in the near future.
(there is not a chance in hell of getting more staff)
Actually, i absolutely love my job, it is by far the most challenging and rewarding job that i have ever done so i am not moaning at all!
There are just aspects that i could improve, i need a point of reference though and that i havent got. Common sense dictates that i am taking on too much.
Think this is more a band 7 job though,not 6.

1) How can you delegate if you don't have staff?

2) Any manager should know that delegation without monitoring is little more than wishful thinking (ie, delegation takes time too).

3) Are you sure that you're not really just making a case for promotion to a higher band (sorry, but it had to be said)?

4) Intra-departmental? You can only work (efficiently) for one boss!

5) You can only do a day's work in a day!

6) If the techs were taken away to save money ... where was that money spent?

7) Do you really want to drive yourself into the deck just because of the shortcomings of the organization you work for (do "they" work that hard themselves)?

Like many other biomeds I have known, I used to enjoy it all too (and still do to a certain extent). Once, the vice-president of the company I was working for, having noticed the hours and the effort I was putting in (and without any prompting from me), approached the owner of the company about some sort of recognition. Through a third party (the secretary) I heard that the response was "If Geoff wants to work, then let him work". That's how much they really value you (I have a few more "stories" like that, but will spare you).

Are you "doing your best to do the right thing"? If the answer is yes, then there's your point of reference right there.

The bottom line is:- do it for yourself! If you enjoy what you do, apart from the bare necessities of life, that is sufficient reward in and of itself! Don't expect any sort of special recognition - "they" won't even notice (and, more than likely, couldn't care less)!

I can delegate areas of work back to the people who delegated the areas of work over to me.....eg procurement, once a decent ordering system is in place i can let this go to the person employed to order and maintain stock levels.
There is more and upon reflection this is long overdue.
What i mean by intra departmental is that i am employed within critical care dept alone, my base is in one dept. If i did the job i do within the biomed area within the trust, training alone would be my remit, not the other stuff that i have to do because i am available to them within my working day.
And defo NO not making a case for promotion because whats the point...all they would say would be NO and if by any small miracle they said yes, that would then give them validation for squeezing out of me what they do because they would be paying me for it!
By the way, reading the opening post on this thread has provoked my thinking about banding, it struck me that i do tons in comparrison to others with the same job title. Too much.
Dont want special recognition, sorry if that how i came across, What i do, i do for my own piece of mind and in the secure knowledge that what i do makes for a much safer environment for the patients.
Do you know, all i can think that the money that was saved from the 4 techs went on was creating 2 new posts,mine and one other (not in devices) and i have no idea what else it went on.
Thats an interesting question...will have to ask around a bit.

Forgive me Geoff, i know i come across as very naive, i am i know it, but your wisdom is invaluable to me. This is because you are an independent voice of reason which is something that i do not have in my work. What you say makes perfect sense.
So thanks for your continued patience and for humouring me with my moronic droning!
I appreciate it chuck.

meant "peace of mind" obviously!!!

... it's something that many of the unenlightened ones never achieve, busy as they are, rushing off to who-knows-what.

It's a bit difficult to delegate upwards, though (or even sideways). "Reject" might be a more appropriate word, I would have thought.

No, not naïve, passionate I would say. But don't mind me (as I've said more than once before), patience is my primary weapon!

Allow me to comment.

I am not sure how many Operating Theatres do you have and what is the reason leading to the decision of sending back the 4 technicians (yes of course you mentioned cost).
4 Techs may be too many I supposed as I am supporting 24 theatres with just 2 biomed techs and ours a multi-discipline hospital. They also cover day surgery wards and the post surgery recovery wards within the same floor as well.

But the plus side is it allows the creation of two new posts and this is where you landed up today.

Geoff has correctly made a point of being passionate in our job. People like us have really no time to consider sick leave and each time when you are on annual leave you come back only to see backlogs as you have correctly said. As a consolation to what you are doing, try giving yourself a pat on the back each time you feel great in making a significant change or contribution in your work. In my last eight years, I have eight different bosses and you just have to accept they have not been able to see the real contribution or rather are not being themselves - not understand what you are doing (they are not biomeds). Ha! ha! I read these topic being discussed in the forum sometime ago.

I take it you mean pull a sickie, as being sick genuinely requires no consideration, you either are sick or not sick!

Depend on the condition of a person if he/she is able to tolerate the body discomfort and continue with their work till the end of the day and hopefully they recover the next day. I think this relates to responsibility but it is very unhealthy to continue in this way as we need to continue re-energise our body and mind to prepare for the next workday.

Regards

Yes, Roger, but in the end you get totally, er, drained (as has happened to me a few times in the past). As we all know, hospitals are not the healthiest of environments.

But, here's a question? Does the biomed (who after all, is as likely as most to roam around throughout the hospital departments) develop a stronger resistance (than, say, the "average man in the street") to all the many and varied "bugs" lurking around?

... and, do we pay the price in later life?

Good questions, Geoff. I don't have the answer but I believed we need to keep or stay fit (with regular exercise) and watch our diet(cut down on red meat). Remember health is fortune.

You hit the nail on the head there Roger. From my experience, the people who have most time off sick are those who tend to eat less stringent diets and generally do not exercise regularily.

That goes hand in hand with those that over work themselves as well. Because of this, the do not have time to exercise and tend to snack out a lot more. A recipe for health issues.

Everybody needs to take a step back once in a while and review there lifestyle. The sooner any issue is addressed the better.

Is food counted as a medical device?
I suppose "functional foods" are closer to drugs than devices.
Or have we strayed off topic?
Robert

Can you remind us what the original question posed was all about, Robert?

Yes, well thanks for all that. Obviously a subject which most people have an opinion on. Just to clear things up

I am a medical device trainer.
I work for the medical physics department.
I have the same qualifications requirements as the medical physics technicians. When I'm not doing this I help out in the lab...admittedly not very often!
I also attend technical training courses.

The main remit of my job is to organise and carryout training in the use of medical devices for ALL nurse - all acute and all community....initially mainly in the field of infusion devices.

Just now,I would like to find out about the different roles "we trainers" have in different areas and also the qualifications and experience they have to be able to get and do the job.

hmn
Do you train staff on how to use the medical device i.e. press this, etc. or do you also advise on the best way to utilise the device for the therapy being delivered? Also, do you discuss safety aspects and any relevant regulations with regard to devices and do you get the staff to complete a competency questionnaire and issue a certificate on completion?
The reason I ask this is that I believe that Medical Device Training is not just a role whereby we teach staff how to use said device but there are much wider aspects to the job.

the techs were ODPs..nothing to do with EBME, no link at all.

Ok hmn here goes:
QUALIFICATIONS/ EXPERIENCE:
15 years ICU nursing with various specialist quals.
Teaching and assessing qual
i have attended numerous "train the trainer" courses for the various bits of kit that i now train on.
I have also used the equipment in practice on patients for years.

JD:
(bearing in mind that i only cover ICU/HDU)
This is very in depth as i mentioned earlier, it is 3 pages long, too much to go into here.
I would be very happy to chat to you and i am very interested in what you say about training nurses. Specifically how you organise this and carry it out, also as some one mentioned the competency paperwork etc.

Then there is also a cycle where staff are trained and retest for competency.

It is always a tedious process having to train over again especially when you have that many kits around. And if there is only one trainer around, it is going to be very taxing for the person.

This is why it is mandatory to keep a database of all staff and there competencies on each piece of equipment. It is also needed for audit purposes.

... even if it's what they get paid to do? Oh dear.