410-CG494E Job Title Medical Engineer - Anaesthetics
Area of Work Anaesthetics Employer Liverpool Heart & Chest Hospital NHS Trust Department Medical Engineering Location Liverpool Salary £17,316 - £20,818 Working pattern 37.5 hours per week Job Type Permanent Staff Group Additional Professional Scientific & Technical Pay Scheme Agenda for change Pay Band 4 Closing Date 26/08/2008
Liverpool Heart and Chest Hospital provides medical and surgical adult Cardiothoracic services to the people of Merseyside, North Wales, Isle of Man, parts of Lancashire and Cheshire. This catchment area has a population of 2.8 million people.

The Trust has recently celebrated national and regional success in major national surveys. The hospital was praised as ‘excellent’ by its patients, rated ‘very highly’ for its cleanliness and rated as one of the two best performing hospitals in the country in terms of providing overall care to patients. This is the 2nd consecutive year that the Trust has achieved this top rating. (Healthcare Commission 2008)

*** PREVIOUS APPLICANTS NEED NOT APPLY ***

Post: Medical Engineer – Anaesthesia

Grade: Band 4

Salary: £17,316 - £20,818 p.a.

Working as a medical engineer you will be part of a highly skilled team that provides a comprehensive service for the management of medical equipment in all its aspects including service, repair, planned maintenance and clinical / technical support.

This exciting opportunity will give you the means to gain experience working on a wide range of highly specialist equipment in what is one of the largest heart and chest hospitals in the UK, working from a purpose built modern facility across clinical departments within both the trust and its customer’s premises.

You should be an experienced engineer with a minimum 2 years quantifiable experience of working unsupervised on electrical / electronic / mechanical equipment. Have HNC/ONC qualifications in a suitable engineering subject with the desire to continue your development up to and including degree level by a variety of methods including in house training, manufacturers courses and higher education in order to achieve registration as a clinical technologist.

For an informal visit/chat about this post please contact Karl Mundy (Manager Medical Engineering – Anaesthetics) on 0151 600 1569.

Applications must be submitted on-line via http://www.lhch.nhs.uk/jobs
or via www.jobs.nhs.uk

Please quote reference number: CG492E

Closing Date: 26th August 2008

Karl, I'm sure your going to get a few comments on this vacancy advertising it as band 4!

Out of interest how come it was banded so low? I can understand if your taking on a trainee but you ask for 2 years experience on what sounds like none medical equipment but then in the person spec ask for experience on relevant equipment.

Even on-call get's you at least a band 5 if not 6 and God knows what "medical gas systems (MPGS) as a competent person" would get you in other trusts. I understand in some Trusts when people mention Anaesthetics it's like the holy grail of ebme but others mention it as oh that's just plumbing. Is your Trust one of those that doesn’t work on the basis of specialism’s but instead seniority where the only difference is more responsibility?

I do share the same feeling that it should be on a higer grade band as the job requires to be ......."you will be part of a highly skilled team that provides a comprehensive service for the management of medical equipment in all its aspects including service, repair, planned maintenance and clinical / technical support." and ......."an experienced engineer with a minimum 2 years quantifiable experience of working unsupervised on electrical / electronic / mechanical equipment."

Roger your location reports as Singapore so I'm not sure if you know much about Agenda for Change but the evalution procedure is detailed here.

One major point is item 12 in the handbook, Freedom to act; band 4 relates to Level 2 which states "Someone is generally available for reference and work may be checked on a sample/random basis" where as band 5 relates to Level 3 which states "Work is managed, rather than supervised, and results/outcomes are assessed at agreed intervals" that's the major reason I wondered if this was actually a trainee position instead?

Thanks for enlighting me on NHS policies and processes. Our policies here are generally based on academic qualification, experiences and relevant equipment training. An engineer with a basic degree generally command an annual salary of between £45k to £67k.

Chris

Im a medical engineer who does on call and am on Band 4! Where does it say that on-call is automatically band 5? I'd very much love to see that!

Regards

Alan M

It's basically Freedom to act, if your on call where is your supervisor? Do you go out in pairs? One to do the work the other just to watch!

Also if the VRCT ever becomes mandatory there's always annex T which states professionals should start on band 5. It's just before annex U the offical procedure for trainee's instead of just handing out band 4's!

We do two men on. A week of first followed by a week of second on. Higher grades are mixed with lower grades so that there is always back up.

Annex T looks interesting... However (and I really really really dont want to start this arguement again) but realistically how long will we be waiting for the VRCT, HPC etc to become mandatory?

How far is Shrewsbury from Liverpool? A million miles in terms of grades (see latest job advert). I hope they don't nick your applicants.

Alan, I take it that two men don't go out to the same job and thus technically you don't have any backup.

Interestingly if Annex U was actually implemented, taking into account a two year training period, for the Liverpool post the starting pay on band 5 would be £14573 rising to £15614 in the next year hense a saving to the trust. Question is would they get anybody for that and is there any chance of the new post holder getting a band 5 in two years time!

Thinking about it further if you add recruitment and retention to the mix Annex U could be used by a trust to pay anything between £15,674 and £20,225 (mistake in previous figures, that's if you use Annex U on band 4 not 5)

To put this band into perspective we have apprentices straight out of training put on the lower run (training supervision) of band 6 due to the terms Highly specialist equipment and also as already pointed out freedom to act. How can anyone of a band 4 leagaly sign off on the job.

In the words of James May (this is c*ck).

Dont sell yourself short or they will forever take the Pi*s.

Billy

Just another point that may be of interest is that we have a small number of HCAs here on Band 4.

Doesnt quite equate or in the words of spock 'it is not logical captain'.

Well you obviously haven't seen what coding get's banded to then. Apparently it's the most boring job in the NHS, one post at the Oxford Radcliffe Hospital actually lists a sense of humour as one of the requirements! Although all you basically need to do it is a handfull of GCSE's and that matches to band 5! Usually coding matches to band 4 so how does someone compare a ebme job and claim the jobs are equal. Perhaps Karl might want to explain how?

I did four years under annex U (backdated), am currently on a four and am doing on call. If what your saying is true, I need to shop about a bit more...

And further more...

You are in the south, we are in the grim north of england. Were a band behind you lot as you live in an nice expensive part of the world and we are in the socially deprived north. Anything north of Watford gap and....

Don't forget were all flat caps and whippets up here!

I assume that you're joking, there, Alan (what's wrong with Chesterfield)? And since when has the south of England been "nice" (but you're right about the "expensive" bit)? I was down there (the south-west, in actual fact) all last week, and was glad to return yesterday to South Yorkshire! As we have discussed before, it's all a matter of perception ("the grass is always greener", etc.)!

Sorry about that I was having one of those Tory "Think-Tank" moments!

Yes, Mate ... I thought as much. The "north" (someone please define) may be economically deprived in certain areas (but I would challenge that, too, by saying that I see both dereliction and rejuvenation wherever I roam in England), but I wouldn't say that it is any more socially deprived than anywhere else in the Kingdom.

As for that report that you make mention of ... well, I only hope that it wasn't funded by us taxpayers. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that England's inherent regional diversity is a great asset ... a strength, rather than a weakness. Dare I whisper the word ... Baboons!

As I've mentioned before, if anyone thinks they can do better working "over the border" within the M25 (for example), let them give it a try. But let me tell you, the North Circular (road) is not only a long way from the Peak District ... it's in another "country" altogether!

OMG! Usually the excuse for giving someone a lower band is that they don't have the required experience or qualifications asked for. Trusts don't usually implement Annex U (yours is probably the first I've heard of) but instead just put people on a lower band instead. Doing both is really mean and actually makes the Liverpool job look good! If that's right Chesterfield probably wins the most meanest trust around award!

Came into the job straight from college with the BTEC National Diploma. If the funding is only at band 4 then... I suppose it beats signing on!

There's no suppose about it, Alan. It does beat signing on. Your self-respect is intact, and who knows where it may lead?

Looks like it's how low can you go in the job stakes. If you thought Band 4 was bad I notice there's now a band 3 post advertised! Obviously national guidelines don't count in some trusts.

Band 1, Band 2 ... Band 99. Look at the content of those jobs!

Yes, the content of the last suguest entry level, but the medical engineering technician profiles stated band 4 for entry. Band 3 your getting into porters pay.

Band 4 why not? You are still young and fresh from BTEC, NHS has to train you for the job you ain't familiar. There is always a first isn't it.

It's the way things are in Modern Britain, I'm afraid, Roger. Many are too proud to sully their hands with real work. They all go to University where they are led to believe they are worth top rates (when, in actual fact, most of them are worth squat)!

No-one gives a damn about self-respect, or even respecting the "other guy" (porters, for instance)! Young people have been taught that all that matters is the relentless pursuit of wonga. That counts for everything in the UK these days. Sadly, the place is in steep decline, and on the road to nowhere.

(for instance, the UK is the only nation to have successfully developed and then abandoned satellite launch capability)

Oh Wonga or in other language Wang! This is a common syndrome among the younger generation. But what I feel is the commitment, contribution and then from it your reward. Isn't a fair deal (show result then I will pay you well).

Band 4 why not? A very good question, if the person required was as you put it still young and fresh from BTEC I'd agree it would be a good start. But if you look at the Liverpool post, what is being asked for is someone with experience. The job that was advertised at Plymouth was a trainee post and that was band 3! You've got to wonder if this is actually right when two posts were recently advertised one in Gloucestershire and the other in London with similar requirements but bands 4 and 5 respectively!

Geoff it's not about passing judgement on Porters it's just stating a fact a porter can get paid Band 3. Our country would be in a sad state of affairs if the only reason for someone to train for a profession was job satisfaction. How many Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers and Architects etc would we have if everybody got paid the same? I'm sure most people choose their future career on how interested they find the subject, but these days people usually end up with a lot of debt at the end of their course which they need to payback.

Agenda for change was meant to ensure that people got paid what their job was worth, but sadly it seems that some places have just used the process to try and make a saving in their budgets! What we need is consistancy but as pointed out we just have consistant inconsistancy.

I guess each system has its downside.

Not only was A4C supposed to pay what the job was worth, but was also supposed to give the same grades for the same job across the UK. Apart from London Weighting etc, if a technican had a paricular job description in Cornwall the same job description would give the same grade in Carlisle. A4C was supposed to give parity by removing pesonalities, favorites etc. If the scoring process is performed correctly, job descriptions should not be under or overgraded.

This is the sort of nonsense that Jobsworths seem to enjoy!

As they say and what's that got to do with the price of chips? I swear you post randomly when you run out of things to say. I can hardly see what the relevance the article has to this thread, but it's just the way the UK system is, if you get on the wrong side of the law, end up bankrupt or take drugs you can guarantee it's going to cause you problems in the future, may not be fair in some cases but in relation to crime and drugs it's a deterrent. What would you have done if a youth commits a crime, send them on a safari or give them Playstations? If anything more advertising of the fact that youth crime can seriously f**k up your life would probably be a good thing.

I really do it just to wind you up, Chris!

What would I do? ... well, I'm a zero-tolerance sort of guy (so I think we can discount Playstations, safaris, or anything like that). But my point was that here's a young guy who's trying to make a go of things, and yet he's hampered by bureaucracy many years after a minor transgression. To my mind this is typical of the Jobsworth attitude often encountered in government organizations (of which the NHS is a prime example). Notice too that the guy has a degree, and is a healthcare worker.

On the other hand, I could refer you to many examples of bankrupts, scag-heads, and all the rest who seem to be doing just fine, thank you very much! Yes, it's the way the UK system is ... and it's rotten to the core. So, regardless of the so-called AfC ... don't look for fairness in the "system"!

PS: the price of fish and chips went up by eight bob last week! Criminal, isn't it?

Very liberal for you Geoff, I would have thought you would have been more of a hardliner send them all to borstal person. The story doesn't mention if the person was on a school bus or a public bus but if it was a public bus I would have thought that the other passengers of the bus would not have thought it was such a minor issue.

Also in regards to Government organisations it's often the Government itself who lays down these requirements and not so called jobsworths in Government organisations. So if you really wanted to discuss the article mentioned I think you really should have started a new thread in the Out of Hours section.

...and back to the thread, please.
This one has drifted as far as it possibly can.

By all means, start a new thread.
All further 'off topic' posts will be deleted.