Has anyone out there in EBME land had any sucess with a JAQ in band 8 job profiles? I'm still paid as an MTO 5+3 and have been asked to do a jaq for my position (and then my lads below me)
Cheers

We have one chap in our department, who got an 8a - His Job title is Principal anaesthetic technician and quality manager.

He got his banding by submitting his JAQ. So there you go - and not me unfortunately...

A4C seems to be a lottery. I visit many different Hospitals and I have seen technicians as high as Band 8, and managers as low as Band 6. Something is not right.

Yeah ... those managers are being paid way too much!

Paying people more for an extra piece of paper? not my style I prefer experience over qualifications

I am sure you have earnt a fair whack in the middle east Geoff
way above a band 8.

I agree about bits of paper - experience carries more weight.

Looks like you haven't been paying attention there, John. As I've said many times before, I've never been on "big bucks" (ask Neil).

And anyway, what we were doing out there was real work, not playing at it.

Unfortunately, experience doesn't seem to count for much in the UK biomed scene. Not in my, er, experience anyway. People that I have met seemed far more interested in risk assessments, CRB checks and all the rest of that BS ... oh, and whether you wore a tie (most important, apparently). The whole thing's a joke.

I have relaxed the 'tie wearing' for my techs.

Got to keep chipping away!

Next thing we want is an NHS technical training school, with courses that people need to attend at each level of promotion. Next we'll have recognised national standards for equipment PM, plus target "guidelines" for (percentage) completion. Then we (and when I say we I mean the tax-payers) want regular technical audits by an independent authority to ensure that proper standards are being met.

Ah AFC - The new nationally agreed profiles assessed at a local level by a group who did not understand the fundamentals of a biomeds job. As long as you got the correct buzz words and phrases you got whatever banding they saw fit (another tick in the box - another point on the payscale). I thought it was supposed to harmonise the pay scales

Our guys Got a mix of 5's, 6's, 7's and the one 8a.
Of two local hospitals - one lot came out band 4's across the team and at another they all got band 7's.

I wonder what would happen if run the British armed forces in this manner

On the tie issue - I used to wear one, but decided it was a bad idea on the infection control front.

This is one of the reasons that I would never fit back in, in the UK, if someone deserves a pay rise they should get one, if someone doesn't then they should not, in fact if their work is sloppy enough to not deserve an increase then they will be shown the door instead of renewing their contract. Dand 4, 5 or whatever people should be paid their worth regardless of qualifications.

The Armed Forces do have a system of pay banding (of course). But the difference is that it's applied across the board, not in an haphazard fashion at local level. Also, in the Forces, you don't get promoted unless (and until) you're qualified. You can (and do) get demoted too! To be honest, this whole AfC episode (or should that be saga seeing that it's dragged on for so long) is indicative of the mind-set that seems to prevail in many of the "human resources" redoubts scattered around within the NHS. In a word, inept. No need to look it up ... it means bungling or clumsy; incompetent.

Solution:- abandon ridiculous concepts about comparing technicians with nurses (or whatever) and have a centralised (structured) system of technician grades (see my earlier comment about a training school that all should attend)! I would have extra pay for being on call, travelling on the job, and a few things like that. There may need to be a few other "variables", such as a London (that is "cost of living") allowance, and possibly an incentive payment to attract people to "unattractive" locations. But these would be a very short list, and be published nationally (so that everybody knows about them). If the NHS wants a new pay grading system drawn up for biomeds, I guess I could have it done in time for Tuesday morning (seeing that it's yet another "Bank Holiday" Monday coming up)!

On ties. Yes, this is one of my major crusades. Every convert is welcomed with open arms (better make that open collar)!

Yes, Neil. Like me, I can't see you fitting in very well with the NHS ethos. Old-fashioned grafters like us are not particularly welcome by "box ticking Brigade", believe me.

Note: here's the seed of another crusade ... let's get rid of that "Bank Holiday" terminology. Call them "Heroes Day", "Nurses' Day", "Tax Payers' Day", "Citizens' Day" ... or whatever! Anything but "Banks" (which have become somewhat discredited of late ... and deservedly so, in my opinion). How about simply "Public Holidays"?

Considering the current political climate how about Hannis for MP somewhere?

With or without expenses ???

Theres a job coming up for a speaker. but GH would have to get past the box ticking first

Don't get me started! I would prefer to revert to a time when the King was the first amongst men. That is, as still practiced in some Middle East Kingdoms. I would gladly submit my allegiance to a modern day Arthur, or Richard Cœur de Lion. Every nation needs strong leadership!

Failing that, the only "office" I would be interested in would be Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England. Doom on all traitors, troughers, [censored], [censored] and [censored]!

At the moment we are in this never-never land wherein we are all subjects of the Crown, but the Crown has no power. I anticipated a "Summer of Discontent" and sincerely hope that what we have seen so far is only the beginning. Time for Change ... big time!

Going back to the original query. Our MTO5 got a band 8b on direct matching. There are sufficient profiles that a JAQ should be unnecessary; have you compared your own job description against the generic healthcare scientist profiles or the "manager of a clinical / clinical technical service profiles? If you find a reasonable fit it is possible to suggest appropriate profiles to the matching panels.( i.e. staple them to your job description)

As far as JAQ's go just stick down everything they ask for, if your HR are following the correct procedure then you should have an informal interview/help session where some trained matchers will run through your completed JAQ with you and help you put in anything you may have forgotten.

Now back to the griping - Why should a manager be paid more than the staff they manage? It is increasingly common, where afc is being applied properly, to find that skilled staff are paid more than their unskilled managers - people management responsibility is worth a lot less than knowledge and experience.

All job comparison schemes have their flaws but are essential in the modern climate as they are the best defence against equal pay claims and AFC is one of the best such schemes around (and yes EVERYBODY thinks that is biased against their particular area [which it is ])

Why employ unskilled managers in the first place?

Why employ managers in the first place?

That is, why aren't tech services in the NHS run by Chief (Master) Technicians?

Meanwhile, in the real (commercial) world, the manager, managing director etc. of a tech services business is usually either the owner of the company, or has a heavy financial stake in it. That's real responsibility. What goes on under the banner of "management" in the NHS is, in actual fact, just playing at it. Even failure gets rewarded in the so-called Public Sector. Go on, tell me I'm wrong!

Too right, managers in 'Nationalised Industries' don't care because they will still get paid regardless of results or failures.
Promotion from within is my believe!

Perhaps they should be known (more accurately) as "Administrators"?

The Japanese used to use the term "salary men". The deal was that they droned on for years and years, on a comfortable enough salary, with a reasonable pension at the end of it. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

The trouble is that not everyone is salaried. Like myself, for instance. Not much time for moaning about the minutae of AfC and which Pay Band I think I should be on (because I've served three weeks longer than the next guy) when I spend half my time worrying about where the next pound is coming from!

Precisely the point behind AFC its NOT about having more time served and ALL about having the skills and ability.
In technical areas you don't tend to get managers who don't know the job, but in clinical/admin areas these type of unskilled managers(co-ordinators would be a better title) are not uncommon.

I've done the JAQ now, based on an 8c job description and spec...lets see how they manage to get this out at a band 3!!!

Dr,
Would you be able to email me a copy please?
I may well be needing it.
Suzuki

Suzuki, PM for you

My JAQ has come back from marking by teacher, and should we say that it is better than I could have dreamed

Does that mean no more moaning, then?

Victor Meldrew is still very alive and kicking and will be after being made redundant as they cannot afford to pay me

"I don't believe it!"

that's exactly what I said when I saw the banding

Promoted to the front of the redundancy queue, that's a neat trick

Here's hoping that they don't keep you on with additional responsibilities and more hoops to jump through!!!

If any one wants help with sections of their JAQ, money can be left in a brown paper bag, behind the system of the gents toilet, Waterloo station, labelled Lucan-Stonehouse

As they are unlikely to pay an 8D even though it was an agreement to abide whatever happened, there could be a compromise of dropping down a grade or 2 and with it go a load of responsibilities or for me to work to the grade and be given the responsibilities. I must be the only 8D that cannot order a paper clip without 2 signatures!!!!!

I'm the Chief Technologist here. (note, I don't call myself the manager). Yes I manage the department and made sure I put in my JD for A4C. Manage = keyword = points.
However it is noticable the number of people now call themselves manager to gain points e.g Estates Officer now reads Estates Manager, Superintendant Radiographer now reads Radiology Manager etc.

Let's hope that the whole rotten system comes crashing down ... soon.

Not yet, I haven't got the back pay yet

Will the manager of the manager's, manage to bring the system down, or will techs be allowed to manage on their own?

Sorry Neil I can't manage that sentence as there are too many managers spoiling the broth, oops my boss is a pastry chef (failed)

When the "system" finally crashes, "they" will be begging the techs to come back to fix the kit!

As I say, let it be soon!

Back to basics ... press here:- [ Reset ]

But ... if you're not yet sure ... press here:- [ News ]

Our Christmas tree is that old, Santa is still in black before coca cola had its evil way and those christmas trees in whitehall are multi-functional, after xmas they can be shoved up ministers where the sun don't shine and be used to remove any more stupid ideas before they come to fruition. Victor Meldrew lives!!!

How about "Victor for PM"?

(and Clarkson for Defence Secretary)

Clarkson as foreign sec too

Oh, OK then.

But I'm keeping the Home Office for Nick Griffin.

Meanwhile, I'll volunteer for "Health", shall I?

Have you been to see frankie Boyle then? Sounds like one of his

Never heard of him. But (having just checked out Google), it does look like he uses my material!

But you're forgetting, Neil. I'm not a "salary man", so I don't get (as in, can't afford) to "go to see" anyone!

Remember the old maxim:- "Money has to be made first, and last"!

I only watch him through radio rentals window, we haven't even got a radio!!

Nice one.

I'd take the post of Foreign Secretary, as long as I don't have to go back to the UK. I could easily take over from T. Blair and be the 'Middle East Envoy' and whatever that entails.

Tony B. Liar as the recent enquiry found out

Les Patterson for the cultural attache?????

Don't they call it being economical with the truth, by the way have you seen my WMD's I think I left them at waterloo station.

Not next to all the used fivers??????

So you have seen them?

I believe that a few of us may have twigged a little earlier than that.


No ... let's call a spade a spade. Liar is perfectly clear. There are other words which may apply - but I don't want to prejudice the proceedings!

Terminalogical inexactitude?

Its those logistics chaps that blow up the devices that look like tramps picking up fag ends...they astound me with their brandy scented after shave

....and Professor Stanley Unwin for the Communications department. multimodus bolokeo straptadonkus on the loadipus restus peaceus radials

... and Stanley Baxter?

As I am feeling quite lazy, weekend drawing near, the position I really fancy is "Minister Without Portfolio

That will be most of the current ones come the next election then prepare for more of the same

@Neil 1 : Sorry. That one is already spoken for.

@Neil 2 : "More of the same" ... or worse? I reckon the best we can hope for is a hung Parliament. That way, who knows, we may even see a semblance of democracy!

Can we hang them now?

Yep indeed but there will still be cuts in healthcare and every public service just to ensure the fat city cats have their cream and private medical insurance

Oh yes ... the City *ankers have threatened to resign en mass, have they not? I reckon we need to call their bluff. Or (perhaps better yet), let them ****** off to Dubai (on British Airways, of course)!

with a rope attached

They reckon that BA loses £ 1,000 a minute. I wonder if that's anything to do with the cabin crew being the best paid in the business? So what is the threatened strike all about? Sounds like suicide to me.

Just as long as they don't expect the taxpayers to bail them out (again). Let lame ducks go the the wall (down the pan, wherever) just as many others have been "allowed" to do. My grand-children are in enough debt already as it is!

For years now I have been forecasting the general collapse of the UK's "economy". It's been based upon greed, candy floss and hubris for years. It gives me no great pleasure in seeing it all come to pass.

Perhaps, after all this pain, one day we'll get back to a truly sustainable economic model (based on industrial output for example ... something tangible, in other words - wouldn't that be nice) where folk get paid a reasonable wage for honest labour. Is that too much to hope for?

shareholders get £1000000 a minute though