Has anyone set up a standard protocol for medical devices that use WiFi networks to transmit data, specifically responsibility and lines of demarcation between EBME dept and IT dept ?

In some (well organised?) hospitals, the IT department is the EBME (biomed) department!

In other (lesser?) hospitals they just fight each other.

And in some ... they have seemingly never met!

Meanwhile, Standards (many and various) exist regarding the use of Wi-Fi, Bluetooth (and all the other technologies) in healthcare environments. Like ideas, they are everywhere; you just pick as many as you need, and (in this case, perhaps) the one that suits you best!

Struth ! BIG subject. (and how are things in my "place of birth"?)

I hardly know where to start or, frankly, if I have sufficient knowledge on each side of this to say. They are (sorry again Geoff) NOT the same. Biomed is not IT. The lines are blurred at best but I might put forward that, biomed is patient connected, IT is networks and everything beyond. Biomeds should not run IT and IT should not run Biomed However, what is most nessesary is that a cooperative stance is taken. Fighting is not going to do our "clients" (the poor bastards who are sick in bed) any good.

Talk to your IT people and discuss your needs, they don't actually have two heads.

Wrong! When it comes to the Hospital Domain ... the Biomeds are the Gods of Technology! All others must bow down (or, at least, defer)! Ha, ha.

... but not only in jest. Biomeds (usually) have the "required" mindset (for patient care). MS Certified types generally don't. Or, have I just been "unlucky"?

The true Clinical Engineer should have technical overview of the complete hospital. Including computer networks ... and even the elevators (lifts, if you prefer). As I have been saying for years (the last thirty, at least) ... someone has to give a s**t (and that someone should be the biomed, in my opinion).

Anyway, what's the big deal about IT? It's just kit like everything else!

PS: as you can probably tell, I've never been big on demarcation.

We treat IT the same as the other branches of engineering, biomedical until we reach the wall, beyond the wall, electrical, medical gas etc. but I must say we do cooperate very well when required.

Yes, that's the traditional (and sensible) approach.

So, what about medical/computer kit (where do you draw the line)? "Off the wall", surely (with computer networks, just like medical gas pipelines ... safely hidden behind the wall - usually)!

Or, put another way ... who looks after the printers in places like Lung Function, ICU (on the central monitoring system) et al?

As I keep saying, surely what we want are Hospital Technical Services (that is, integrated ... with the biomed in charge, of course)!

As the printers are networked, they are left with IT. Printers with the equipment are BME. Medical/Computer equipment i.e. ultrasound machines, the networking side (ethernet, IP address, image transfer) is left with IT, the diagnostic side is BME.
Integrated as far as you can go, but IT has other roles away from BME.

And (as we all know) BME has other roles away from IT!

Plenty of debate on this!

I would agree with Geoff and technologists should have a complete understanding of the system, while maintenance of service may be the domain of IT , EBME will have to be involved and work co-operatively with IT to ensure patient safety when using new telecomm tech.
A complete integration of hospital technical services may never fully be possible due to line of accountability , a share co-operative response is necessary.

Not so. I was involved with two (at least) successful examples (out in Saudi Arabia, back in the '80's and '90's).

But yes, the will has to be there. These days, there seem to be far too many people hanging around hospitals* whose primary interest is that of simply building their own careers (empires, whatever). It didn't used to be like that, back in the (happy) days when hospitals were what you could call "folksy places"!

"Technologist"? What's that? And who is IT accountable to then? Surely they are a Law unto Themselves?

* And who have no business being there, in my opinion.

Michael

Have a look at the IPEM website, there is a provional programme which might meet with your needs.

http://www.ipem.org.uk/ipem%5Fpublic/article.asp?id=397&did=49&aid=3861&st=&oaid=-1

Jim

Nice one Jim. What they're saying there just about sums it up. If only I were funded by the taxpayer, then I could enjoy such gatherings as well. :sigh:

Many thanks Jim will have a look at this
Micheal

The two departments will integrate more in the future. As new devices will come less wired.

http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/cables-body-sensors-ge-moves-forward-patient-monitoring

As I keep saying (!), (in technical terms) there is nothing special about medical equipment - in fact, much of it is hardly what you might call "advanced" at all. It is simply the environment it is used in which makes it "special"! It is the nature of its use which gives emphasis to the issues we "major" on - like electrical safety (allowable leakage currents), for example.

The same with technical support. The way to go about it remains essentially the same, whether we're talking about (for example) medical ultrasound, or photocopiers. Put simply, kit is kit, and it needs to be supported and maintained (repaired, and all the rest), regardless of the technology it uses. I have always thought about things in these terms. Surely I am not alone?

The "trouble" with (hospital based) biomed is that so many techs involved make a "federal case" (that is, a big deal) out of the whole thing, whilst others (I'm sorry to say) simply see it as an easy ride until the pension becomes due!

Of course technical services in hospitals must converge (or better yet, merge)! Why not? It's the obvious path to take. Integration. Efficiency. Shared resources, and all that. But I think we all know why this won't be happening any time soon. In a word (or two):- personal self-interest! "Career building". In a single word:- Jobsworth!

Medical Equipment must be special, just look at the prices the companies charge just for using the term 'medical grade'

That's not special ... it's known as gouging, and it will continue as long as institutionalized healthcare continues. That is, spending someone else's money, "business lunches", and all the rest.

Take a close look at those who are the motivators behind purchasing in hospitals. Generally speaking, it's the "big shots" (surgeons and the like). Dare I suggest that "they're all in it together"? Do you think they give a Tinker's Cuss about maintenance and tech support?

"Make do and mend" is a motto that I recall from the happy days of my childhood. And (thinking about it) that's probably where my tendency towards what I call "good equipment husbandry" comes from. Again, surely I am not alone?

Can I suggest a link to the thread on patients TVs.
There is no point in doing electrical safety checks on the biomed kit and then plugging in a PC or printer that is going to push out a few milliamps into the patient.

Over-stating the point a little there, I would have thought, Brian. How is the printer connected to the patient?

But anyway, here is the link, for what it's worth.

If you are going to worry about non-biomed kit then why not colour code all the electrical outlets, green for biomed, yellow for pc's etc,
Yes I am joking, it is just that in my opinion regarding safety testing we have enough equipment without worrying about all the other non-biomed equipment in the hospital.

Yes, but Mr. *Micro Amp isn't too choosy about whether he's hiding in a patient monitor, a floor polisher, or (for that matter) the power supply for a Ninteno Wii.

And, as we all know, many "non-medical" items (PC's, printers, DVD recorders et al) are increasingly found in "medical systems" these days.

* Not to mention his wife, Milli.

Yes, the printers, DVD's etc are found in the equipment, but they are usually considered as a "system" Echo Ultrasound, Laproscopy Towers etc.

... and the Xbox?

Now your getting silly, and that's why I will stick to biomed equipment and let the other staff worry about their equipment.

No, not silly ... I've seen all such things on the wards in UK hospitals. Not to mention those damned "Patientline consoles", or whatever they're called (and I'm surprised that no-one else has mentioned).

D&E
Donny
NT
Patientline

... and, the good news!

The issue of demarcation of responsibilities between "IT" (department, equipment) and "biomed" (similarly) has come up on another forum. So I hope I can be forgiven for re-opening this one on here after an hiatus of two years, just in case someone has something useful to add over (what is likely to be) this "slow news" weekend.

I hope I may also be forgiven for beginning a sentence with a conjunction (just in case RoJo is tuned in here).