Hi,

I would just like to know what band/salary a trainee engineer should start on bearing in mind he has 18 months NHS experience and a good BSc honours degree in Physics? Would he need to go back to college to gain a more 'hands on' qualification to work in medical equipment management or is the degree suitable? I'm just after some different opinions,

Thanks,

Jordan

Welcome to the forum Jordan.

You haven't mentioned the nature of your 18 months experience in the NHS.

But, assuming that you are now in a biomed department of reasonable size, and therefore in a position to be mentored by veteran technicians ... and are keen and willing to watch, listen, and learn ... then you may not need to return to college.

But you should still expect to be at the bottom of the heap when it comes to pay banding, I would have thought. After all, we all have to start somewhere.

After that, it's up to you. Do you want to be "hands-on" ... or do you have other aspirations? Personally, I would recommend the former.

I was a trainee on 65% of band 6 which worked out to roughly £20 grand, promoted last week and now on the first rung of band 6.

Funny how somebody managed to get you on 65% of a band 6 Dave.
The band 4 is clearly entitled Trainee Medical Technologist.
Just shows how the grades vary across the country, even though A4C was supposed to standardise everything.

Yeah well I worked my butt off.

Did you start out at 65% or were you promoted during your training, personally, if someone does work hard they should be rewarded. I have never been a fan of across the board pay rises.

With the way the NHS employs staff and the AfC bandings work, employing someone as a band 4 could mean that they can never progress to a band 5 or 6 unless a specific post becomes available at that level. This makes the system even more of a "dead men's shoes" situation.

Employing someone at a percentage of the band for the post they are intended to one day fill using the Annexes of the AfC pay scheme is therefore the most sensible (possibly the ONLY) way of ensuring that you get trainees, and are able to keep them once they are sufficiently trained to be promoted to the full grade for the post. Otherwise, they will have to move elsewhere to get the post they were training for.

If you ask for a band 4, it is a hell of a job trying to get them promoted to the next band up later on - it seems to be positively banned!

And congratulations Neoteny.

Remove the bands and pay people what they are worth.

What an excellent idea Clare. Certainly beats all the "discussions" I've had over the years in progressing my role and grade.
Paying people what they are worth is one of the gains that should have be made under A4C. They now have to jump hurdles and prove their knowledge at two points to gain increments, rather than get them automatically.

We're straying off the topic a bit here ... but surely everyone must agree that AfC was just a great big con. An expensive one, too. That is, how much did its implementation cost, not only in £££'s but also in lost man-hours?

I say No to any notion of automatic annual increments. Why reward people simply for "hanging-in"?

But (on the other hand), for those for whom money is the prime motivator, may I refer you to the current thread about so-called "Managed Services".

Paying people for what they are worth sounds good. But what is the measure? Percentage of PM completed?

You did very well Dave. We take on trainees using annexe U of AfC based on band 5, ie. start on 65% of top of band 5. Most places see band 6 as a senior post, so by rights you will become a senior as soon as you have qualified. I think Jordan could expect to start on 65% of a band 5. It's all a load of tosh anyway. We wanted to promote some of our basic grades to senior but had to advertise the jobs and go through the process of shortlisting & interviewing. In the end it was decided that we may have to look at creating annexe U posts at band 6.

What goes around comes around. It wasn't that long ago that I came across a bunch of blokes all sitting at MTO 3*** (or whatever it was).

And I emphasise sitting. I wonder what Band they're all on now?

That was because they weren't allowed to be MTO4's (reserved for management).

Yes. And yet at another place there was an MTO 5 who did very little else than act as the storeman! But, to be honest, that was within the M25, where seemingly different rules apply!

If you work your butt off for the NHS and you reach the top-end of your 'Pay Band' that is it, no promotion, no increase in salary. If that is the case I am glad I never joined. One of the main reasons I left the UK was that I was training people on more money than me and when I asked for equal treatment I was told no. Voted with my feet and the more I hear about the NHS the better I feel.

There is another way (if your dissatisfied with your banding and lack of opportunities), and that is to learn and/or train into another area within the NHS where there may be further opportunities with higher pay bands.

All I am asking is can't you be paid for what you are worth?

You made the right decision all those years ago, Neil.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't worry too much about our brothers (and sisters) working for the largest employer in Western Europe. Many are (and have always been) paid far in excess of their true worth anyway.

And don't forget, they have job security and a pension at the end of it. Those who are "dissatisfied" with their Pay Banding should be grateful for all that, I would have thought. That is, be thankful they have a job (and a comfortable job, at that).

It's a matter of horses for courses (as I say), and I have no problem with that. But although some may bitch and moan about the "threat" (real or imagined ... and mostly the latter) from private contractors, most NHS techs would not last a month out there (here) in the cold. And it is a bit cold today.

A change of government might affect the 'threat' as one party is known not to like the NHS very much.

No way, Mate. It will be "business as usual", as it has always been.

Geoff you make everyone in the nhs sound like a bunch of lazy wasters!

Now, far be it from me to bang on and on about how private industry works but...........

Everyone who is doing even a half assed job should get the equivelent of CPI. This is required just so you stay at the same effective income level. Anything above that should be a reward for performance.

Perform poorly, get little, perform well, get more.

Easy really!

That's not my intention. But see earlier posts by others, and draw your own conclusions.

And, if I'm factually wrong in anything I've said here, please pipe up.

How about ... perform poorly, get the boot?

Dave I am with you either in Private or Public "Perform poorly, get little, perform well, get more."

See my post (above).

But sorry Neil, that's not the NHS way, is it?

Or am I wrong again, guys?

If it continues then, frankly, yes

(and yes, we do/will offer support, guidance, training. etc, etc but if push comes to shove...)

How about ... perform poorly, get the boot?, please don't apply this to the management as they usually get a huge pay-off as well as the boot.

I live in hope !!!!!

We're getting away from the original topic here, so I don't wish to reply further. And I guess my personal views on all this have been aired often enough anyway.

@Dave

Whilst not wishing to labour the point, perhaps you had better elaborate what you mean by "CPI"!

CPI, consumer price index or, the rate of inflation, ie the amount you need to increase your income to stay where you were (in real monetary terms, to quote the politicians) 12 months ago.

To get back a bit to the original topic. I am not in any position to comment on the NHS pay scales (obviously) but what I would comment is that, starting pay scales need to be enough to attract the quality of staff that you are hoping to bring into the industry.

If you are looking to bring in degree level/HND/City and guilds (showing may age or WHAT) people then you must compete with the other industries who are trying to get the same folk. If you cannot attract the "right" people then you need to look at your terms and conditions. If on the otherhand you place an advert and get flooded by Nobel Laureate's then you have over done it !!

From my dealings in all this, it seems to me that there's nothing much wrong with pay and conditions in the NHS, but there does seem to be a lack of suitable applicants.

That is, posts have been known to be advertised (repeatedly), without being filled.

Part of a larger problem, perhaps? Lack of apprenticeships, lack of "industry", lack of City & Guilds? Yes, there are lots of young people with degrees. But degrees in what? I'll leave it to others to comment further.

Pull up a sandbag.
The RAF deemed ONC sufficient for Techs such as myself to work on some of the most complex equipment on the planet.
Now I'm working on "complex medical equipment" it would be an overstatement to state that i probably only ever use / or require 10% of the skills i was using on a daily basis back then but the NHS sees fit to demand HNC's, Degrees etc and of course Registration in order to do the job.
One things for sure, the job is very well paid, even overpaid for many positions in my opinion, especially toward the "management end". After all, it is an absolute doddle!
Topper

A "doddle"?

I am regularly expected to instantly repair equipment with no fault discription, no decontamination and no consumables.

Mind you as we have heard in the last 2 days i do work for one of the few none Foundation trusts to come in Monitors bottom 12, a place where you are 3 times more likely to die of cancer than the best performers and apparently we have the worse performing primary schools in the country.


Lee

Yes, Topper is right, the general* run-of-the-mill medical kit is in many ways a doddle when compared with some other technical equipment that's out there.

And (from my own perspective) it also tends to be a lot easier when you have fully equipped workshops at your disposal. Not to mention a budget for parts, and all the rest.

I'm just glad that Topper said it first, though. I can only imagine the "red arrows" from my regular admirers if it had been me!

* "Heavy" imaging equipment, and Linacs and stuff like that (some of the lab analysers, even) can be a different kettle of fish ... but how many NHS biomeds actually work on kit like that?

"I would just like to know what band/salary a trainee engineer should start on bearing in mind he has 18 months NHS experience"

This is the original question from Jordan, if he has 18 months NHS training surely he is in a 'band' now, struggling to move up the ladder, then move out, go private, go abroad, anything other than a small cog in a massive wheel.

In his Profile, Jordan describes himself as a Trainee EBME Technician.

But he hasn't been back here since his original post, I notice.

Let's hear what he has to say.

Geoff, I think I need to stick up for some of my NHS colleages. As you have never worked in the NHS you are not really in a position to comment on their skills or attitude.
There are a lot of really good technicians in the NHS who often go the extra mile without looking for thanks or payment.
There are three technicians here + me. All work extremely hard. I don't have to chivvy them along, they just get on with the service schedules and only stop me from what I am doing when there is problem.
I am sure there are more departments like ours who seem to be tarred with the same brush as the minority of deprtments that give the majority a bad name.

I would say i have bent over backwards and worked my butt off for my trust.

I was a trainee for a few years doing same work (plus more) as a fully paid tech - which wasnt that fair in my opinion.

And even now im on alot less and doing a TON more boo.

I'm sure you're right, Graham.

But you're wrong about one thing there, if you don't mind me saying. I have probably visited more NHS biomed departments than most people who get on here, and have even worked in a few of them (albeit as an agency technician). I can also claim to have many years of experience in the game, not only as a "hands-on" tech, but also as a manager, contractor, project engineer, writer and all the rest. You'll just have to believe me (or not) when I say that I know a great deal about the attitudes and skills required to succeed as a biomed tech, whether in government hospitals or anywhere else!

My comments are not meant to belittle anybody. In fact my interest is to the contrary, to encourage debate (and, hopefully) improvement in general, and promote the biomed credo in particular.

If that ruffles a few feathers along the way, that can't be helped really. That sort of thing is in the nature of internet forums, I'm afraid.

I have to say I have seen some morons come through this EBME dept... mostly agency that do not have a clue

I've never been to your place, Dave ... so I'm not about to argue with what you're saying. Neither am I going to be drawn into trying to defend the agencies (most of whom I know only too well).

But ... having said that, morons or not, agency techs are very easy to be rid of, are they not? Which is something that can hardly be said about permanent techs.

Well my situation is I was taken on as a band 4 engineer because I don't have the "relevant" qualifications (HNC Electronics or equivalent from the job description for band 5) and I have limited
experience, my 18 months NHS work was as a band 3 technician in community equipment. So I thought that's fair enough but when I start the job I find there are people on higher bands who don't have any qualifications and I'm the one who has to go to college on day release to do HNC Electronics which so far has only covered things I did 5 years ago.

I was under the impression that a qualification like a degree, say, was to show the level of competence you're able to work to, which should be equivalent to a certain number of years experience. Maybe I'm wrong? So I should be on a higher band to conclude.

Thanks for coming back to us, Jordan.

A few comments come to mind, if I may:-

1) Perhaps your unqualified colleagues are in fact qualified through experience.

2) It is your boss you need to impress. Can we assume that he (she) is a veteran technician himself (I won't add herself as I easily tire of all that stuff)?

3) It seems you have had 18 months in which to make an impression. Some us (myself for example) never had such luxury!

4) Are you paying for your HNC course? If not, again count your blessings!

Are you looking for advice? Assuming that you're happy with the idea of working in biomed in the long term, why not knuckle down and crack on with it? Those older guys will have moved on (retired) eventually, leaving you as cock of the roost!

Qualifications and/or experience is what matters the most, for me I prefer experience over qualifications, if you have both so much the better.

Whilst experience can be deemed equivalent to qualifications,(think qualified to do the job through experience of doing said job), i don't think qualifications can be deemed equivalent to a certain number of years experience if any experience at all based on the very meaning of the word.
This probably explains why those who are experienced favour experience over qualifications. Human nature.
Maybe it would therefore be more appropriate for industries to base pay purely on experience and disregard qualifications all together for the purposes of pay progression.
In a nutshell, Jordan, i would focus on your experience, not your level of qualification compared to those (more experienced) around you. Crack on and do the same job they are doing if not more and the opportunities will come, sometimes sooner than you think.
Topper

we have band 5 senior tech with 5 to 15 years experience and band 6 section managers with 15 to 25 years experience, currently 3 posts empty and i am still waiting to submit review info for my afc grading.5 years later!
up here if you had an hnd and no experience you wouldn’t even get a band 4 job, afc has made it impossible to recruit new staff
rant over.

However, agency "morons" remain available to clear backlogs of work, apparently.

ACW, whats the point of hiring a HND, PHD if they have no experience?

If I had a say in the matter I would remove all the bands and pay people according to their experience. (Not forgetting that they have to be worthy as well) No point employing someone that doesn't want to put the effort in.

Mr. ACW doesn't make the rules, Neil.

And (although, as we have been reminded earlier today, I am not an employee of the largest employer in Western Europe myself) I think it may be accurate to assume that the NHS is a "rules based" organisation. Very much so, I dare say.

Meanwhile, it seems there is some sort of agenda being driven through to promote the idea that everyone (nurses, techs et al) must have a degree. That's the main thing, apparently. Experience, and more importantly (to my mind, and yours, no doubt) capability doesn't necessarily enter into the equation at all, it would seem.

The trick with the NHS is that they can lure you in with a glimpse of what the top of the scale is, but don't tell you that you might have to wait upto 8 years to get it. In private industry you are paid for what you do, in the NHS you are underpaid for at least half of your time in service.

Two thoughts there then, Bill:-

1) In the grand scheme of things, eight years isn't so long.

2) How come all you guys continue to work in the NHS?

Top of the scale in a particular band, then you have to get more qualifications to move to another band, but only if a position is available. That's how it works according to the contributers to this thread, if that is the case, as Geoff has mentioned 'Why Stay?'

... could it be because not everyone is motivated solely by greed?

There are higher callings in this life, after all.

Not greed, to be paid what you are worth. I know there are a lot of people that go to work to feed their hobbies and are not interested in promotion, being the boss etc. all they want is to do an honest days work for an honest salary and I admire them for that.

Yes. The best people are like that, I find.

As I've mentioned before, the Smart Dude not only enjoys his work, but works at what he enjoys.

Jordan, there is a job advertised today for a Trainee in Birmingham at Band 5 the bottom of which is £20,710
So if you or on less than this then " vote with your feet " Mate.!!

Geoff,

I started at the bottom, got fed up being poor and "voted with my feet". After about 5 years or so doing contract work I ended up back where I started. I am on the same pay point as my contemporaries but had a more fruitful journey . I'd recommend anyone starting out to look around. It's just a shame the Middle East isn't as appealing as it was in the Eighties.

Yeah, George Bush made a good job of ruining many a good Middle East career, for sure

Jordan seems surprisingly quiet !! The Guy who originally posted that is not the Country or Dear old Katy !!! ha ha

You never know. If the Price is right?

Tony, Bill. being out here does not worry me and I prefer to be here than the UK, especially at this time of year although at 20-25 C it is getting a bit chilly.

@Bill, Tony et al.

Perhaps the guy is simply keeping his powder dry.

Either that, or he's come on here, had a look around, then asked himself the question:- "is that how I want to end up in thirty or so years time"?

Then (quite rightly) thought better of it, and gone off to work in the shopping mall, banking, local government, 'elf 'n safety, social services, or some other worthwhile pursuit much in demand.

Im not surprised! Those bandings are awful! Is it just me or was afc miserably failed in its attempt to "standardise" for all jobs across the country?

No, it's not just you (see earlier rants, many and various).

If that were true, then a HND would outweigh a Degree, as it is a much more "hands on" qualification as opposed to the theoretical work of a degree.

The lad may be labouring under a misapprehension, I'm afraid. I see it a lot amongst youngsters, and it's a pity that they've been "sold a pup", as it were.

But, never mind, reality has to kick in at some stage, so it's probably best that it happens earlier, rather than later.

Degrees are two-a-penny these days, to the extent that they have become devalued. In ten years time, everyone will be expected to come armed with a Masters, no doubt.

But (as we all know) the work is still primarily about "hands on". Some folk have an aptitude for it, some don't. I'm sure that most of us could suss that out in a guy in eight days (or less, I would like to think) rather than 18 months.

Totally agree Geoff.We are in danger of "locking out" good "hands on" type of people who cannot apply for posts because they need a Degree.
Then as you say it will be a Masters Degree!! (or already has)

When you hear of folk in the trade with a Masters Degree in Biomedical Engineering who cannot solder -this is what we are up against - academia rather than practical skills.
This is the way everything is going.

The young ones don't know what the EBME technician got paid back in the Medical Physics Technician days -there seems to be a culture of wanting to run before they can walk.
We had to work for many years on trainee/junior grades.
There needs to be a balance.
Perhaps someone with a physics degree should be looking to become a physicist in a hospital rather than a Technician.

Educated idiots? I've been fighting them all my life!

Welcome to the forum, Mate.

Couple of years back I interviewed a recent graduate from a local uni Biomed Degree. As part of the interview I handed over a fairly simple circuit diagram and asked them to tell me what it was. After a few seconds they admitted that they could not read a diagram at all. Have to admit, I was shocked.

Having a degree shows the ability to "think" to a certain level but I have to confess, more often than not, I would rather take on someone who had a good few years fixing TVs and videos. At least they will know one end of a diode from the other. That being said, several of my team do have degrees (in electronics engineering) and they are top class.

How come you were shocked?

(see my previous post)

Yes ... ex-TV trade techs make damned good biomeds, I have found. But they are yet another dying breed, of course.

Gawd knows what the "profession" will be like in ten years time.

To my mind, having a recent "higher qualification" demonstrates little more than an ability to "cut and paste", rather than "think". Most of 'em seem unable to write (spell, grammar etc.) ... but I'm told "that doesn't matter these days"! To which I say b******s!

What about maths? Are these fertile young minds any good at that (which at least would demonstrate an ability to think logically, reason, etc.)?

In short, what can they do? Manage? Managers are two-a-penny. After all, what's so difficult about playing with spreadsheets and attending meetings? What we want are hands-on techs, practical people who can get stuck in and clear the work. You don't need to be clever, just resourceful, industrious, and - yes - enthusiastic!

Technicians. Not Boffins, or PhD material!

Hey !! just noticed that if you do 5 more posts Geoff, you will have a total of 6666. That's like an extra big devil number !

I've promised Huw that I'll stop when (or if) I reach 10,000.

To be honest, even I get a bit tired of repeating myself over and over.

Yes you are right, there are very good people out there with degrees -I don't deny that.
I suppose in this day and age where jobs are in short supply for graduates in industry there will be even more.
I have always thought that Degree qualified Engineers should be doing something more in the way of designing rather than fixing as there Degree course goes in depth at a high level into complex mathematical calculations relating to circuitry etc.The words that come to mind are fourier analysis, quadratic equasions, J notation and lots of others.Mind you some of that was HNC level stuff.
I don't know - the debate will go on.
To get back to the subject - Bosses will pay their staff what they can get away with.If your face fits you might get a better deal too.They can always find reasons to give either a good banding or a not so good banding to their staff by either bending the rules or strictly adhering to the rules.There can be a whole host of tricks up their sleeves.
Jordan should perhaps have a good think about his career as someone said he is being paid to do his HNC and it is a good qualification that is universally accepted at technician/field servicing level throughout the industry.My advice to Jordan would be to keep job till the end of his HNC and then he is in a good position to re-negotiate or move on.He does sound like he might have a better long term career than most

All that stuff you mention was HNC level (at least, it was back in 1979).

Meanwhile, composition, spelling, grammar, punctuation and capitalisation was something us low-level drones learned in Primary School and the few years that followed.

Then I guess we were lucky in that there were proper engineering apprenticeships available.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way "against" young folk. Quite the reverse, in fact. But the facts remain that everyone needs to go through the mill, walk before they can run ... and learn from their mentors.

That was the great thing about apprenticeships, and I'm pleased to see such being offered at one or two NHS biomed departments.

As I've mentioned many time before, what I like to see can be summed up in a single word:- namely attitude. Personally, I am able to forgive many a snafu if the willingness (to learn, to improve, to be the best ... whatever) is there, regardless of what is claimed on fancy bits of paper.

The real problem with having people around with degrees is that they're never going to be content with being a mere hands-on technician, are they?

Hi Cyberdog,

I'm on the HNC now and it is just as academic as the degree was, not very "hands on" at all. The qualification might have changed from what it once was, and employers always ask for it but it is really just equivalent to the 2nd year of an honours degree.

You're dead right there. ONC or City & Guilds Electronics Servicing is more than adequate.

Especially (as I say) if they form part of an engineering apprenticeship.

I expect the best you can hope for (as far as practical skills are concerned) is "on the job training" amongst your more experienced colleagues. And (if you're lucky) a couple of weeks at Falfield and the occasional manufacturer's course*.

* Like this one ... £ 700? ... Ye Gods!

Where do I get a managers job where all I'm required to do is as above? There is a great deal more running a department/business than that.

I was on a 'in-house development course' yesterday and we were told that the ability to be flexible in a job role was a necessity in todays work place.

Our job is not just about fixing things. We may have to train equipment users, produce reports/spreadsheets, quality control, attend meetings, risk assess, manage people etc...

My job role is not the same as it was 15 years ago. Come to think of it .. it isn't the same as it was 18 months ago.

My head is not in the sand and my stick is not in the mud...

Cheers
Mark

Sorry to disagree (again) guys ... but I would say that the real job is more or less exactly the same as it was 35 years ago. That is, fixing the kit.

All that other stuff is transient and superfluous. A bit like managers, you might say.

Meanwhile, Ohm's Law, Eindoven's Triangle ... and all the rest still apply as far as I know.

And, by the way, we did have chief techs, senior techs and all that stuff back then, you know. Someone has (had) to be in charge. But, for the life of me, I never found it to be too much of a big deal.

Don't worry Mark. You'll still be there next year. Doing more or less as you're doing today (and indeed, this time last year).

I'm starting to feel mildly insulted here Geoff. Have you ever managed a department? Have you taken that much "weight"? It does not sound like it or you might have a different view. It might look easy but, believe me, it is not.

As to the "it's the same as it was 35 years ago" comment, well again, no. The basis (fix the kit) may be the same but much, much more is expected these days. The world is more complex, industry (even the NHS I imagine) is much more complex and , as a consiquence, the job is much more complex. No more just sitting in the "biomed shed" of your youth fixing "kit", PR skills are required and a quite varied set of skills beyond that. I have been around this industry for a mere 20 odd years and even I can see that things (and the expectation of the function) have changed in that time.

If you think that being a biomed is just about the kit Geoff, then you have lost contact with the reality of the current situation.

Would you like me to publish my CV?

This thread is supposed to be about advising a young bloke just starting out, not managers defending their turf.

We'll have to disagree. Maybe by another fifteen years or so you'll have come around to my way of thinking.

I'm starting to feel mildly insulted here Geoff. Have you ever managed a department?

No it was just an 850 Bed Hospital circa 1986

Thanks Mate.

But I get "mildly" insulted on here almost every day. Water off a duck's back, Tony.

For what it's worth, my proudest claim to fame was being de facto (but, as usual, never by job title, or indeed salary) Operations Manager of the Asir, Najran and Al-Baha Regional Medical Equipment Maintenance Project (and it was the first, and therefore the most "challenging", I might add). What was that? 65 guys, 13 job sites, ten large hospitals, 14 small (it may have been more, but I forget now) ... and, oh, over 350 clinics! Over a wide geographical area (but not as large as Oz, granted) in the mountains to the south of Saudi Arabia (the bit next to Yemen).

And (whilst I'm blowing my horn, as it were), I may as well mention that it was me who bid for that project (and won) 18 months earlier. It just shows what a humble army-trained tech can do (and I could cite a few of my old mates here as well, but will spare you all that).

But even that was getting on for twenty years ago now (no mobile phones and internets then, then). Since then it's all been a bit downhill, unfortunately. But there again (as has been mentioned on here a few times before), I am "Yesterday's Man" ... and only thrusting young degree holders are allowed to be, shall we say, "clever". Never mind that ... what about "accomplished"? Ha, ha.

Then, how can you possibley say that managers do no more than play with spreadsheets and go to meetings?

and, gosh, getting of post subject, never seen you do that before...........

Back to Jordan ( not the Country or Dear Katy ) Hey matey, if your looking for a Good Paying Job RBS will be recruiting soon, mind you they are a " Wunch of Bankers " !! ha ha
Degrees in Centigrade and Fahrenheit ( see I can even spell it ) are equally acceptable !! Tee Hee

Not too Shabby then Geoff, my best was 6 Brit Techs and 13 Indian Lads, a good bunch too.

I know its getting a little off topic but regarding the last few posts:
Whilst many Managers are very ineffective there are those that are not.It wouldn't be fair to tar all with the same brush. One of my bug bears is when Managers make decisions (Sometimes poor ones) without involving staff. Another very fustrating issue is not listening to or implementing common sense suggestions, improvements etc.
A favourite quote banded about by Managers is "Its historical" when referring to why things are done in a certain (usually inefficient)way.
A good Manager engages staff, communicates with them, takes their concerns forward, acts on their suggestions (if they are plausible), deligates responsibility and automony and above all supports them. In return for this style of management, staff tend to show more respect, less conflict and enjoy a better level of morale towards their management.
I think some Managers lose site of these qualities and induce conflict and disrespect unnecessarily.
There are thankfully some good managers (in my opinion) just as there are good and bad technicians (IMO)

On yes, Mate. I was in my element there for sure. And the Only Brit in Town (as usual).

Pity about your Brit techs (which one was that, Jeddah - Medina?) ... I always found "best results" with the Filipinos and Indians (and, up to a point, the Egyptians).

@Dave

Perhaps we're getting confused here between Managers and Leaders.

As we know, the NHS is full of the former, but the latter are a bit few and far between.

@Topper

Fair enough, Mate. Remember that mantra that I've chanted so many times on here before:-

"Lead, follow ... or get out of the way"!

PS: I hope that Jordan is talking all this good stuff on board!

Nice one Topper, A Captain who runs a Happy Ship is also secure in his position.

If you have the right team around you, managing is easy. I have always stated that you cannot learn to manage from a book, you can either do it or you cannot.

Indeed, nice one Topper, we aren't all lazy/arrogent/spreadsheet reading/just going to meetings bast**ds but indeed to try to


.... and, to get back on subject, if you don't like where you are..... move, (or "get on your bike" as I seem to remember one Norman Tebbit say many years back)

It may be getting of-topic, but at least Jordan will see some of the issues in front of him and hopefully he can make an informed choice as to the career in front of him, personally I prefer people to work their way up the ladder rather than starting at the top, at least then they actually know and understand what they are talking about.

starting at the top almost always going to be a disaster. Very, very few can do it (just ask Prince Charles).

Which of the Wise Old Dudes was it who mumbled something like:-

"Be not afraid of greatness; some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them."

Frankly Jordan, given what you are seeing here, you might want to "run a mile" and join a different industry !! They are all mad (except me of course).

Night all.

Never took 'greatness' serious enough, responsibility I take serious.

@Neil

Yeah, who gives a Tinker's Cuss about their Goddamned egos!

@Dave

Surely not! The lad must be all fired up by now, no doubt!

One last piece of "wisdom":-

"Know what you want from life, and if what you want is within your reach, take it and be content!"

(and, believe me, that's the best advice I can give)

Genius! 99% madness 1% ****-****

I recently read that an HNC would give you approximately 100 'points' towards a degree - honours or otherwise. You would need 300 points for a basic degree and 360 for honours.

So HNC = 1st year degree.

Huw's not wrong, I already had an HNC and it only got me off the first year of a degree. Alternatively there is the Foundation Degree (the Mickey Mouse Foundation that is!).

And ... as we all know, Huw ... Points Make Prizes!

I hope you're not referring to Eastwood Park, there, Bill?

Back to the topic.

I would suggest that although Jordan has a BSc in physics he needs to do some electronic course such as HNC so he is aware how technical calculations etc are made. He also needs to gain as much hand on experience as possible either by in house training or manufacturer's courses.

Then, re-negotiate his grade. If he doesn't get very far, move on, somebody out there will not hesitate to take you on.

Sound advice. He is already doing his HNC, it seems.

Although (as I say), City and Guilds would have been just as useful, or perhaps even more so. But ... are C&G courses still available, I wonder?

Having said that, there is another way (and it's the one I like myself), and that is as an "apprentice" to an experienced tech. But I doubt that such an approach would sit well within the organisation of the NHS. And my guess is that it may not appeal much to Jordan, either.

Geoff,

I was having a dig at the concept of the FD. There are so many different academic paths it can be confusing: C&G, HNC/D, NVQ, FD etc. I recall a previous thread on this.
Unfortunately the NHS is not set up to allow apprentice types to progress easily. As mentioned earlier on in this post all grades are treated as separate jobs. I suppose the thing to remeber about the NHS is that its core personnel are nurses and doctors and they don't understand the requirements of an engineering/ maintenance workforce. NHS Biomeds, estates lads etc. have to "fit in".

Yes, that's a very astute point. But techs can progress through the limits of the Band, can they not? Beyond that (as has been mentioned a few times already), they will need to apply for other positions, possibly located elsewhere. The same as everybody else in the UK, then!

On the matter of training, to my mind it matters very little (in fact, not at all) how a tech was trained, what route was taken, or what the course(s) were called (even if the "training" was "only", in fact, by way of hard-won experience), just as long as he's ready, willing and able (capable) of doing the actual job before him.

Yes, biomeds (or whatever they may be called locally), being support staff, are undoubtedly "poor relations" when compared to the medical and nursing staff. But (again, to my mind) that is only right and proper. After all, patients are cared for by nurses, not engineering technicians!

From what I have read on this thread, you can only pass through the bands if a position is available, otherwise the choice is stay at your current grade or move elsewhere. If you have to move to progress then surely the trusts are wasting money and time as they will then have to start the recruiting process to replace someone that otherwise could have just been promoted. Makes no sense to me.

Yes, but there is ... er, bandwidth within each Band, is there not?

If you're interested, look up the list of pay scales that was published here a year or so ago.

And anyway ... define "progress". It doesn't have to mean "money grab", does it?

Would you be happy to stay on the same pay grade year in year out if a position within your trust was not available, you have said many times "people working for the NHS stay for life if they can" If you were young and ambitious would you stick around (hoping against hope?that someone leaves) For job satisfaction a lot of us left the UK and remember money (tax free) played a big part in our decisions.

Better speak for yourself, Neil.

But in answer to your question:- yes, I would (if I enjoyed working in the place, the location, my mates ... and all the rest).

But ... we're not talking about me (and you). We're responding to a (young, supposedly) bloke looking for advice!

"Hoping against hope"? What the heck are you talking about?

Yes, but .. no. If you work in a dept where the various bands do the same work .. irrespective of qualifications and experience ... well, dead man shoes or whatever else.

If there isn't structure within a department .. all is lost.

If you're doing the same work as the bloke next to you but you're being paid £5k - £10k less than him... A4C hasn't fixed things.

We can all be flexible, but £notes DO come in to it.

Cheers
Mark

Yes Mark.N this is exactly what is happening. I wouldn't care if all the trainees in our place were being paid the same.

Jordan, what are your options once your training has finished?

Perhaps that's the problem within the the NHS .. pulling the ladder up behind you....

Cheers
Mark

Surely that only happened in the navy, Mark?

Under A4C all jobs are scored and then banded, depending on the score. This should in fact put identical jobs on the same band. Don't forget, its not the person who gets banded but the value of the job. However the people that score the jobs are not always the same, so you can get identical jobs with different bands, it happened here, but a few appropriate words (not repeatable) put them on the same band.
If Jordon feels he is doning the same or more than somebody on a higher band, he needs to see how both jobs were scored.

Don't want to digress too much but.....regarding Geoff comments about the Apprentice route and 'doubting that such an approach would sit well within the organisation of the NHS'. Well that is not our experience of the situation.

In my time here we have had two EBME apprentices taken on and were both successful in their training. The both did an HNC in tandem with their work based training - seemed to work for us. Only thing I didn't take a fancy to was the amount of paperwork they had to do for their NVQ.

Check things out with the local college, ours were very good. As far as I understand it, under A4C they could still go that route (i.e. an apprenticeship) under payband4 whilst in training.

Perhaps I didn't express myself very well. What I was really driving at was having the fledging tech mentored by the more experienced one (a situation that can absorb a fair amount of the senior tech's time).

Firstly, to answer your question, my understanding is that the trainee band should be 4 (in those ebme depts which still employ trainees), automatically rising to 5 on qualification. If this is truly a training post then the newly qualified tech should not have to wait for a band 5 to become available and then apply for it; his eventual promotion should be budgeted for when he is taken on.

But secondly, with a Physics degree (A-level route, Russell group university?) a trainee clinical scientist post would be more suitable than technician's work, I would have thought. The following link may be of help. Sorry if you've already been through all this, by the way.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=235

Panander, I notice that your response on this thread contains a lot of 'should' does that mean that there is no definitive answer, especially as you are also advising another route for a career within the NHS.

Can we assume that the bloke in question is young enough to be in a position to make up his mind what he actually wants to be?

Here are some clues:-

1) An engineering technician working on medical equipment in hospitals.

2) A physicist ... "scientist", or some other such thing?

More clues:-

1) Engineering technicians do "hands-on" practical work which involves an understanding of engineering principles. It also involves being able to walk before you can run. That is, experience that can only be acquired over a period of time of actually doing the work!

2) Some things cannot best be learned in books, from seminars, classrooms etc. but instead involve getting stuck in and having a go! In fact (come to think of it), years ago we used to have Trade Tests whereby each new level of attainment was tested in a practical way. In other words, it was only once you had actually proved yourself that you could hope that benefits (such as increments in pay, or even promotion) might follow.

Hi Graham, cheers for this information - I didn't know that's how it worked!

Neil, I'm not sure what'll happen when my training finishes or WHEN it finishes even. But I've heard it takes about 5 years to get on the VRCT - but only 4 to be a state registered clinical scientist it seems.

Seems crazy to me that they can have techs doing the same job, yet paying them differently. That is why I left the UK I was getting less than techs that had just been hired and I was teaching them! Glad I never returned.

Neil We have to recall you back to the UK, your firmware needs updating......

You have been out of UK since 1981,well overdue... promise you the procedure will not more than two days.

We will also install the arabic help menu, and free Sat Nav option.

How does that sound?

You're posting (daft) comments under the wrong thread (again), Umish!

Why would a guy who works in the Desert Kingdom, and has roots in Thailand, ever want to come back to the [censored] UK?

Well said Geoff.

I say "should" because it seems that afc has failed to ensure that equal jobs around the country, or even within one hospital, are banded equally. And of course, not all jobs are subject to afc - such as all medical posts, and senior management posts with what appear to be negotiable salaries and bonuses. Why is afc considered to be the best way of deciding salary for some people but not others?

Can you show us any post on this forum where anyone says that it is?

Who sets the salary scale in private hospitals (Bupa) are the scales higher or lower than the NHS (depending on location I assume)

The private hospital sector in the UK is, shall we say, a bit limited.

Very few (private hospitals) are of sufficient size to justify a resident in-house biomed, let alone a biomed department per se.

Private hospitals rely a lot on manufacturers service engineers (and why not?).

I know a bit about the inner workings of the Nuffield Hospitals, and would say that their techs (who cover an area, and travel around) are paid at the "going rate", as one would expect. That is, on a par with rates of pay in the NHS. Perhaps I should add also that biomeds working in private hospital scenarios tend to be experienced blokes who can be left to get the work done without "supervision" as such. Nothing to do with the "trainee" situation, in other words.

There aren't any; I didn't say there were. I would be very surprised if anyone on this forum thought afc was a good idea. My objection was to government policy.

Join the club. Or, better still, join in with those trying to do something about it!

The world needs to find its voice. The UK (with one of the highest per capital uptakes of *internet access in world) should lead the way.

* Pity, though, that most use it only for porn, or ordering groceries. But never mind.

I said HND not HNC, they are not the same.

Indeed. And as every Academic person would know (or, perhaps not, apparently)!

Just in case others may be unsure of the nuances surrounding them ...

Nice link Geoff,
So as you can see if you are studying a HNC you are most likely working as well, and so this qualifies as your "hands on" experience. Whereas in a HND you are most likely not working and so the tutors (should) usually endeavour to include as much practical work as possible.

So ... which one is seen as "better"? Or, are they in fact more or less the same (which is how I have always regarded them)?

So ... which one is seen as "better"?
HNC or HND?
There's only one way to find out........

"FIGHT"!!!!!!!!!

The pencil case v the tool box, is it a fair fight?

Should they be paid at all? They should be grateful for the work these days.
We have 99 redundances coming here. In the hospital not the department. We just have a few frozen posts which is effectively the same problem.
Robert

Is this what is meant by Lean Management?

No, plain and simple cost cutting.
Robert

Those bonuses have to be funded somehow.

And the three new managers that were announced in the same message as the freeze on recruitment, agency staff and over time.
Went down well that one I tell you.
Robert

Ive always considered a HND and HNC practically, if you have the D you can calculate how to get the lid off and if you have the C you know what to do with the contents.