As an employer (Avensys Medical) I am finding it very difficult in recruiting experienced biomed? What can Companies like Avensys, TBS, EBME, BCAS and others do/offer from an employment perspective to entice engineering technicians from the NHS into the private sector? Is it conditions of service, wages, pensions, cars, travel, training, promotion, holiday entitlement, healthcare...what?

The alternative is to breed our own engineers via the level 3 courses and foundation degree we run in partnership with falfield (eastwood park), but that’s a very long process...

I would appreciate some feedback....

Ah yes ... the blokes.

As you may recall, Rob, this is a topic of great interest to me as well.

How to get, and then retain (motivate, and all the rest) good techs?

Not easy.

I'm a bit snowed under just at the moment, but be sure that I shall be keeping an eye on this one, and may well respond later in greater depth!

PS: better file SWM under "others"!

Could try tapping into the Forces leavers market. I recall a Forces resettlement magazine called Pathinder (or Pathfinder)which detailed case studies of service leavers but was mainly a brochure for Resettlement Training Courses offered by various industries and Training Companies, such as Computeach, (I spent my grant on Fibre Optic Installation & Testing C&G's with Fujikura). All leavers are entitled to these grants and they could be used to pay for the training you mention above.
Could make contact with RFEA (Regular Forces Employment Agency)also.
In my case (ex Aircraft Avionics Tech) i had absolutely no idea Techs existed in Hospitals to maintain equipment, you just don't think about it. Therefore if you could tap into this market (maybe contact pathfinder to see if you could write a brief column about the EBME role or advertise courses), you could potentially bring our proffession to the attention of thousands of potential candidates who currently are not aware it exists.
Topper

I'm sure each individual would have different reasons for staying in an NHS role or moving over to the 'Dark Side'. Some would be attracted by higher wages in the private sector, but put off by travel or the possibility of having to work longer hours. Not forgetting the public sector pension anyone with a few years service is unlikely to want to give up.

Breeding your own engineers may be one option, but training someone doesn't mean they won't be enticed by other employers - public or private sector. Gone are the days of working in the same department for 30 years+.

Do you only want experience, or are you trying to recruit a certain type of individual? Having experience doesn't mean you'll get a proactive, dedicated worker - there are a lot of people with experience sitting back waiting for a pension!

Perhaps you need to have the flexibility in your recruitment policy to offer specific enticements for certain roles or to target individuals with whatever they want (within reason of course!).

Rob, check your PM,s Tony

Further to my earlier post ... perhaps it would be wiser for me to keep my powder dry on this one.

What do I mean by that? Well, I have my own "man management" techniques, used with (some) success, developed and refined over the years ... so should I share these (give them away) in Open Forum? Especially, that is, as I also seek good technicians for the Dark Side.

But here are a couple of clues:-

There is nothing particularly clever about it, Rob, and certainly nothing more than you and I learned (usually the hard way, in my own case at least) back in the Mob.

But regarding Topper's point about ex-Service techs. I too always used to favour them. But I'm sorry to report that recent experiences have changed my opinions on that one somewhat. It seems that they may not be the easy answer, after all.

As you know (and as Pipsy suggests) the needs of the Dark Side and those of the Public Sector (eg, the NHS) are significantly different.

And as we all know (and as I have remarked many times before) there isn't (and never will be) a bottomless pit of good techs out there just sitting around waiting to be hired. They have to be attracted towards joining the company (dare I suggest the word "excited")! And (again as we know) different guys get hooked in different ways. Some (but by no means all) want money. Others may actually enjoy driving about, or the long hours (and the technical challenges) ... etc., etc. But I believe that everyone likes to be part of a well led, properly organised, "winning" team. OK that's enough (no more clues).

But ... to cut to the chase ... how to motivate and retain? In my opinion, it's all down to that same old word that I've used so many times before - leadership. Shouldn't be a problem at Avensys I would have thought, Old Mate.

Hi Rob

It isn't just a problem attracting people into the private sector, it seems just as impossible to get people into the NHS.

When we recently advertised for a supervisor (band 7) we had less than 6 decent applicants and out of those only 1 turned up to the interview. Within the NHS there’s hardly any reason to move hospitals - without promotion money stays the same so unless the hospital offers something extra (career goals etc) people don’t move. Actually that’s where you have an advantage; the NHS has no flexibility on wages, no chance of company car, healthcare etc.

There just isn’t enough staff to go around. I suppose it’s a case of supply and demand, there’s no supply so in theory wages should go up. If you offered enough you get staff.

I came in from non healthcare industry and I think we’ve only employed one tech with any healthcare experience in recent years. I think you’ll probably have to train your own staff and just make sure the benefits of working for you are more attractive than your competitors!!

As for me personally I enjoy being based at one site, knowing a good portion of the staff and working as one big team for the greater good. Not sure I’d like moving from site to site never really getting to know the people you’re working with. There’s practical no chance of promotion here, but I’m happy for the moment actually doing something practical. Apart from the wages I can’t see any attraction in being promoted to management, sitting behind a desk all day with all that stress!

Unfortunately, it's not usually easy (and probably not a sound business proposition) for small independent service providers to train up their own techs.

One of the reasons for that are ... well, all the clues are there! Small means that everyone on the team has to pull their weight (and then some). There simply isn't time to pay much attention to an "apprentice" (or whatever).

Don't forget also that we are talking here about businesses. New hires don't usually get er, hired, unless and until new work (often a new contract or service commitment) is at least imminent.

Which (and I'm guessing here) is probably the situation that Rob is facing, I should imagine.

The preferred business model is to have lots of capital (no pun intended there, Rob) and be able to hire (grab) suitable techs if ever and when ever they become available (that is, before the competition does something similar). Sorry Rob, but this could mean you need to sell the motorbike, Mate!

About the Foundation Training comment. How to prevent the guy simply moving on once you've trained him up? Back again to motivation, and all the rest (see my earlier post). When and if the team appears to be dragging their sorry butts more than usual, then it's up to the leadership to make sure that there is always something new and exciting happening (or about to happen). H'mmm - now where have I heard that before?

Leadership. Team building. Giving everyone a fair crack. And making sure that everyone feels valued and respected. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way"!

For instance, Tesco have "cherished employees", you know.

I know that some on here will mock this (but who cares about them) ... but here goes:-

In my experience and opinion (which, I might add, has varied almost not at all over these last 35 years or so) the best people (and we're talking about biomeds here) don't need motivating.

That is, they (should) come along with self-motivation built in. If that's not the case, then you would be better off showing them the door straight off the bat.

Real biomeds enjoy their work. They are rarely "9 to 5" types, at all. As I have said before, a willingness to do the actual work (what I like to call "cracking on") is more important than any bit of paper.

As I say, you just need to entice them with an interesting job (eg, not simply driving a van about the length and breadth of the UK, for instance), treat them well, and then let them get on with it.

So much to say ... so careful how to express it.

Having worked for one of the companies mentioned by Rob, I feel suitabley qualified to comment. I also have extensive experience in the NHS as well as working for several other OEM companies.

I also have a military background ... but I don't think that is relevant here.

Geoff is quite right, contract and employment are closely linked when working for a "small" organisation providing Biomed support.

I'm not demeaning "small" private companies but contract length, support required on assets covered and geographical coverage are somethings people working in "large" NHS Biomed outfits would see as a "risk" if they were to take the plunge.

Maybe after next Thursday and with hard times to come in the NHS, then Rob,Geoff et al may find there may be NHS Biomeds who may be looking for work.

Severe cuts to come in the NHS over staffing will effect Biomeds.

This isn't scare mongering, this will happen, the onus on all NHS organisations is to save, staffing is the easiest way.

I don't think it is the right way, I think we Biomeds are a precious source, but I think there will be defining moments in the years to come which will result in differing "partnerships" and changes to working practices that will impact on public and private service providers

If you're looking at poaching then you have to offer something better than the NHS...the hardest things for the private sector to compete with are 'job security', final salary pension scheme, a geographically small but large employer.

There are fears of with the private sector of being shunted around the country against your will, losing a contract and being mad redundant, loss of NHS T&Cs as a safety net.

So to poach the private sector needs to offer more than the NHS does..whether in financial or job security.

Generally biomeds are not always valued in the NHS so perhaps this is an area you can value your staff????...add initiatives on top of salaries like cars, bonuses, extra CPD?

Just some thoughts

Dave is right about things to come ... it will be grim (financially, and even perhaps, socially) ... and we digress only slightly, as (as far as UK biomed is concerned) I believe that the small (lean, mean, etc., etc.) ISO company will be best placed to weather the storm.

But poaching from the NHS? Not necessary, in my opinion.

Meanwhile, for what it's worth (and without in any way wishing to hijack Rob's thread), as always I also continue to seek out good techs, particularly (again, as always - nothing really changes) those with expertise in anaesthesia, laboratory and imaging (x-ray and ultrasound) kit.

Useful people are always required not only for Dark Side duties (where good all-rounders, "utility players" even - willing to put in the hours sometimes called for, and yes, able to drive the van when necessary - are most valued) but also those interested in acting as volunteers in support of medical charities (that this, those willing to work for the sheer joy of it, for nowt, or next to nothing). As I have said before, there is a "bigger picture", and the best people are not motivated only by money.

All of Mr.eastangular's points are valid. But they are easily dismissed as far as I'm concerned. Simply put, those with the type of mindset he outlines "need not apply"!

Very philanthropic Geoff.....
But meanwhile market forces prevail, and good quality staff who work for the NHS will only be recruited into the private sector if the terms and conditions offered are favourable. Quite simple in the vast majority of cases we all have bills to pay and we prefer to be employed where the remuneration matches the role (cold hard fact).
You can’t expect to offer a Rolls Royce service on Skoda funding..... Unless of course, you know different.....

I assume your remarks relate to the "volunteers". Volunteers er, volunteer ... that is, they do stuff in their own time. It's very good for the soul, you know - giving as well as taking.

Meanwhile Dark Side duties take care of the bills we all have to pay. Especially those of us lucky enough to reside in the UK.

But, since you ask, yes - I do know different(ly). But as I indicated earlier, I don't feel the need to open up all my secrets.

Sorry for hi-jacking Rob.
Maybe a little bit more direct to answer the question you originally asked.
What is required to "entice" NHS Biomeds to private providers.
To make a comparison on the points you raised

Wages........NHS £32k -£38k..........Private £25k - £27k
Pensions.....NHS final salary (safe).Private good but risky
Cars.........NHS ? personal choice...Private ask the Taxman !!
Travel.......NHS home every night....Private where am I tomorrow
Training.....NHS dependant/patchy....Private dependant/if needed
Promotion....NHS individual taste....Private contract depending
Holidays.....NHS 33 + poss flexi.....Private 25 when possible
Healthcare...NHS err NHS.............Private see Taxman again

The way I see it then Rob is if you want to attract a good experienced NHS Biomed what you need to offer must be around these points.

You also need to convince them they won't be out of work if you loose a contact, you wont be away from home for 26 weeks out of the year. You wont be expected to work at the weekend, or evenings, for nowt "Coz I do it ". You will have support and help when required not just " keep your head down and get on with it"

This isn't a dig, honestly, these are points I have seen that would need addressing if you were to attract NHS Biomeds.

This doesn't mean they are lazy, unproductive or "sat in their Ivory Towers", it means if you want to attract the best then you have to meet their requirements.

Post Agenda For Change, salary terms & conditions have changed considerably for the better for the vast majority of NHS BioMeds, certain areas of the Private Sector have been slow to realise that things have moved on and they need to tailor their recruitment packages to reflect these changes.

Dave's figures and comparison points look right to me, and I would echo his comments.

People favour career progression and the occasional sideways move, but if the package offered is basic compared to what the NHS will offer, it would appear to be a non starter.

You don’t need to be a recruitment guru to establish why you have difficulty attracting experienced BioMeds away from the NHS.

Are there any figures out there to back up Dave's claim that private sector biomeds earn £25K to £27K? The £38K looks like a band 7, there aren't many biomeds other than supervisors & managers on that band. £25K to £27K is comarable with band 5 which is unfortunately the working grade for most biomeds. But i agree that job security and pension are the main motivators for staying in the NHS. I left the NHS and came back five years later, dissolusioned with the private sector. The wages were very good but there was no job security and other T&C's were much worse.

Just to qualify what I have said Bill, £25k - £27k was what the "private" company I was working for were looking to pay.

They knew NHS Biomeds were on more, couldn't attract them, nd pursued other methods for employing staff i.e ex-military, overseas candidates, university graduates etc.

I work in the NorthWest. Most people of experience are Band 6, and have worked with quite a few Band 7's, not always in supervisory positions. I would say in my experienceBand 6 is the norm.

I've also worked for OEM companies and they were(are) looking at paying £25k - £28k with a generous package !!!

Most companies these days fill positions via agencies, these prefer to get people more towards the £25k figure, as a start.

Next time you see a position, contact them and tell them you are looking for a salary of £34k upwards. I bet you don't hear much more from them.

Interestingly enough many companies offer a "bonus" as an incentive on top of a basic salary to make the £ figure look more attractive. In my experience, the hoops you have to jump through to gain this "bonus" are unachievable and relate to not just your own work, but group work which includes the Sales side (so if Sales are down, say goodbye to your bonus).

Most BioMeds of any calibre will not require an additional financial incentive to do their job well, (they just get on with it) and such a "dangled carrot" would make a potential position less attractive to the job seeker. Far better to increase the basic salary IMHO.

Thanks for the reply Dave, I didn't realise that the salaries in the private sector were so low. When I was "contracting" (late 80's) my hourly rate was more than 1.5 times that of the in-house biomeds. I assumed that the private sector still paid more.

When it comes to attracting (what you may consider to be) the right sort of people, two more approaches (or business models) come to mind.

These are workers co-operatives, and offering equity in the company.

I have never come across a co-operative of biomeds myself (else I would have probably joined it), but I did once work for a bloke who granted an increased share in the company year on year. Foolishly perhaps I didn't stick around long enough to see any benefit from that, but that (as they say) is another story.

In more recent years, guys I have worked for felt unable to even let me buy into the company, let alone grant a share as part of the "package". I understood their reasons (think ego) but still believe that it actually showed an element of short-sightedness on their behalf. That's just my take on things.

But if I started my own biomed venture now (which, I might add, is extremely unlikely), I would set it up as a co-operative of like-minded techs. You know, the B-Team ... the Band of Brothers. Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno, and all that good stuff.

I believe that approaches like that not only demonstrate total trust, and also move away from the employer-employee relationship, but gives extra incentive to the (shall we say) veteran (experienced, older) guy.

... OK Rob, you've got some feedback. When shall we be hearing from you again?

Hi all, thanks for your comments. I was unaware that I was competing against a salary of around 34k? The post I currently have available is for a tech/eng to run his own EBME within a private hospital group, so no driving around the UK and at a salary of £32k plus car allowance of around 3k plus bonus. The post is as secure as probably any within the NHS at present. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I do believe that EBME departments within the NHS are prime targets for takeover from alternative 3rd part servicing organisations; particularly so after Thursday and a Conservative landslide. My company and no doubt those previously mentioned are currently gearing up for just that scenario.

Thanks once again for all of your comments....

Yes, Rob ... you'll have no difficulty at all soon ... they'll all be beating a path to your door when it becomes, shall we say, a buyers' market.

Meanwhile, those "third party" companies may (or may not be) gearing up, as you suggest. But I still reckon that collaboration, rather than out-and-out competition will become the order of the day if we are to stand a chance against the well-known "big player".

Remember "SWOT Analysis"? Well, there are strengths and weaknesses in all those little ISO gangs. But with co-operation, all the bases can be covered, straight off the bat. Think "joint ventures" (a contract bidding technique that was often used, with success, out in the Middle East, for instance).

Not so sure about the landslide, by the way. But change for sure (and badly needed too). But we'll all be the wiser in a week's time ... when the real horse trading commences, and the full extent of our dire predicament becomes clear(er).

Well mate, the Conservatives did,nt get there Landslide but has it made a difference yet recruiting wise now that " Call me Dave " and Nick are in Charge ???

Give it a bit more time, Mate.

Meanwhile, and on the other hand, it’s not at all easy to orchestratre a small team of talented people, whilst keeping everyone happily involved, included, motivated ... and all the rest.

In short, singing from the same hymn sheet.

The other thing about having a "team of all the talents" (aka, the B-Team) is that so-called Genius Guys have been known to loose interest in the more trivial aspects of the work ... ergo, there always needs to be a reliable pipe-smoker pottering about at the back of the workshop to take care of the actual work.

Have to disagree with the analysis of the NHS wages against Private on page 2.

You get EBME techs from band 4 to band 7 in exceptional circumstances. Usual band 5/6 which is 21K to 34K. Still cheaper than service contracts it has to added.

The real problem is snobbery creeping in with this VRCT Registration and TECHNOLOGIST bull. Also the need for a degree??, started with an HNC from a forces background myself.

As someone has put already it is down to personnel circumstances and job security. If you offer someone a 3 year contract at decent wages with perks you may get people to leave the NHS.

Re your 3rd paragraph.

Could,nt agree more.
In fact I remember posting on here some time back, when the Arabs asked what kind of a degree I had, I used to say what do you want ? Centigrade or Fahrenheit !! ha ha

Got slapped down too by some guy in Manchester called Richard.

Anybody heard of him lately ?? Clinical Technologist I believe !!tee hee

He didn't show up at the gathering last week, unfortunately.

Meanwhile (and if I may be forgiven for quoting from my own post):-


And as if to emphasis and reinforce what I've said there, I continue to seek good hands-on techs of suitable calibre.

Specifically, two primarily workshop based in the West of England, one in the East of England (again, workshop based) and a couple of others based in the North East and North West, in a mobile (service engineer) role.

We're talking about good all-rounders, working mainly on used equipment. That is, actually fixing kit! One or two of the positions could include an element of what we might call "sales engineer" work (and I only mention that here in case anyone is attracted to that sort of thing).

Never a dull day, and a chance to make your contribution felt in a small B-Team environment! Whether it be as a proverbial pipe-smoker, or as a (thrusting?) fertile young mind!

Having just spent five minutes or so going through this thread, I can but commend the posts made by Dave Hypson. Spot on, Mate!

Rob's original question mentioned enticing techs from the NHS and into private companies. To reiterate what I said before, perhaps Rob is looking under the wrong stone there, as it were.

Hi Geoff/Tony,

Ref landslide; cuts more cuts and even more cuts to come....

Job vacancies: both posts filled now guys and thankfully didn't have to use one of those dreaded recruitment agencies

We have great staff at Avensys with the right attitude, we have also started our own apprenticship scheme which is now 18 months down the line and just beginning to bare fruit...the lads will have attained a full degree by the age of 23/24 in 'medical engineering technology' on by then be earning a very good salary in a fantastic job. Ive been putting them through level2/3 training, the FD course followed by a final year at Kingston Uni. long term solution for the lack of skilled workers in this sector...

No landslide, but another one caught cheating the tax-payer. Loses one post but still keeps his seat, something very wrong there.

Yes, I believe that the Avensys model is a good one.

Getting non-biomed (but otherwise good) techs trained up is a perennial problem, especially for small companies where (ideally) new hires need to hit the ground running.

Are you in a position to offer training to your competitors? Or rather, those whom a person of shallow perception might regard as such?

But ... regarding cuts - what else did you expect following thirteen years of fiscal imprudence bordering on the insane?

Yes, the shortest Cabinet career in (recent) history. Old habits die hard, I guess.

Nothing's going to change at the fundamental level until the Revolution, Neil. But, fear not ... me and a couple of mates are working on it.

Good on yer Rob Glad you got sorted

Take care T.