Just had this e-mailed to me and thought I would share it with everyone. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions. Personally although I have been in this job for twenty years I wasn't aware that I could become an IPEM member and I certainly have no idea what the advantages of joining are.

IPEM’s Technology Advisory Group (TAG) will meet again in June and we are looking for some input from all technologists (whether IPEM members or not).
We would like to hear about the issues currently causing technologists concern. The concerns should be in areas that are relevant to the work of IPEM and, ideally, would be issues that affect the profession although more localised concerns are also welcome.
We’d also like to hear why technologists:
don’t get involved in IPEM activities and
choose not to be members of IPEM
Please pass this on to any technologist who may not have access to the mailbase or IPEM’s regional network. Please pass comments to michaela.moore@nuth.nhs.uk.
Comments are welcome at any time but that received prior to June 20th is more likely to be discussed at our next meeting
Apologies to those of you who may have received this multiple times.

Best wishes
Michaela

Miss M Moore
TAG Secretary
Medical Physics
Level 2, NCCC
Freeman Hospital
Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE7 7DN

Technologists? What's that?

Halfway between a technician and an engineer!

There appears to be biological engineers but nowhere can I find Biomedical engineers in any of the IPEM literature.

As for the 'Benefits for your career development', do they work for the same organisation as us. No pay rise this year and if your face doesnt fit or you challenge the 'yes men' you get nowhere.

Those overlooking a technical workforce with NO! technical background.

Waste of time, stick to ieee or one of the other big ones at least they are respected throughout the community.

Beat me to it Geoff
Best to ignore these people, they might go away!

They are not going to go away, so love them or loathe them, you won't be able to ignore them.

If you are working as a 'Biomed, Medical Engineer, Clinical Technologist, EBME Tech, IPEM affiliated Technologist, (call it whatever you like), in a few years if you want to repair medical kit in the UK you will be regulated by the Health Professions Council. The writing is on the wall and has been for a few years. At the moment it is the VRCT, what it will be called in the future I don't know - but you won't be able to ignore them.

Bill mcg - with regards to the IPEM (TAG) question about why technologists don't get involved in IPEM activities, I would suggest that it is because if you read most of the IPEM literature it is dominated by Medical Physics types. My opinion on issues currently causing Technologists concern would be that the IPEM has mainly failed (miserably) to get its message across to Biomeds, Medical Eng.... etc, etc.

Well the obvious elephant in the room is what are they going to do with their Voluntary register of clinical technologists?

As for membership of IPEM:

The IET gave their members a visit to CircleBath
A electrical installation magazine I received gave a nice review of a open plan theatre
EBME Associates had an interesting programme
And IPEM gives us this! Not really in the same ball league is it?

At the risk of starting another VRCT thread:
A recent government paper (Command paper:Enableing Excelence) stated that any healthcare occupation which is not currently regulated will not be recommended for regulation in the future. There will however be a regulatory body (CHRE) which will oversee any existing or new voluntary registers which employers and employees may (or may not) use as they wish to 'showcase' there abilities/value.
If an employer asks for potential employees to be registered, that is their prerogative. Many employers seem to be going down this route as a just in case future proofing excercise, however there are benefits to becoming a 'member' of a professinoal insitution (see link below). Not sure what, if any the benefits to registraion are as the information required to register is often the same as you would submit in a CV or interview process!

http://www.ipem.ac.uk/aboutipem/benefitsofmembership/Pages/default.aspx

Having looked into this a little, I am now thinking of approaching IPEM I was registered with the IET but rising membership costs have pushed me out.

Regards,
Rob

OK, I'll just pick on one (of the few mentioned):-

"Health Professions Council".

What's that? I thought we were having a "Bonfire of the Quangos"!

All these "monitoring agencies" haven't been doing too well recently, after all (have they)?

See the almost daily news reports. OK, let's quickly knock one out now:-

Dont see HR or Estates (both of which work in the NHS) getting registration, so thats the everyone in the NHS blown out of the water.

Who is going to say that one person is OK to do the job and someone else isnt. Seems to say that your manager can sign you off. Who has checked that they are technically competent to do that.
Seems like we are just introducing more buerocracy into a system that is overwhelmed with these idiots. A cull is what is needed not more paperwork exercises. We are all sick of the added need for ticks in the non productive drivel that is spewing from the NHS nowadays.

Needed - Record/Test data keeping of all equipment under your control. (something that ISO Regs was meant to look at)

Not needed - More red tape

Speaking as a trainee who has just completed the VIVA(portfolio submission and exam) for Part 1 of the IPEM training scheme for clinical technologist's I have noticed a few things.

1. Completing training scheme and being on VRCT does not automatically mean a certain banding as would if a nurse has completed their training and is registered. However we have completed a HND or equivalent and further training on the job.

This I do feel needs to be addressed especially given that the reprofiling that Modernising Scientific Careers(MSC) programme may achieve. As all servicing and to a point repair relies on procedures/protocols of some description be it in service manuals or internal procedures, not in order to allow a lesser skilled tech to undertake said tasks but as part of an efficient, consistent service and also QA/QC.

If you were a patient in an ICU would you want a band 3/4 tech working on ventilators or doing full services on infusion pumps which required opening up and then extensive testing after putting back together. Nothing against band 3 and 4 technicians they do play a vital role within the team.

2. Why is it that the closest availiable external moderator basically had to travel about 4 hours drive each way? More support to the training supervisors and external moderators certainly would help and might improve the level of coverage across the country by encouraging more people to get involved in these roles. I have met another trainee who was not on the training scheme, didn't have a training supervisor or anything so more support is clearly required in this area.

Regards

CEng trainee

If you know anything about NHS Job matching or Banding, you will find that a qualified nurse who holds a degree will be banded as a 5, do you think that as a trainee that you qualify for the same banding?

If you apply for a post with the NHS, you will be correctly banded according to your knowledge, skills, and experience.

To be honest, you are confusing theoretical knowledge with competence. A Band 3/4 Tech can work on infusion devices and ventilators so long as they have adequate supervision and mentoring. In your case, you will also rightly receive supervision and mentoring until the theoretical knowledge and skills you have gained are at such a level where you would be allowed to be deemed competent. Only then, you will be able to work on items of high acuity equipment, unsupervised.

The practical skills level of a qualified Nurse justify a certain banding, once you have gained experience, so will you.

As I do know something about banding sorry to say but holding a degree does not entitle you a band 6, absolutely nothing to do with it if you get the numbers elsewhere on the system. (the other half does not hold a degree and has no intention of getting it and sits on a band 6). This is due to freedom to act and responsibility.

As for the band 3/4 working on a vent (with supervision) NO!!!
Sounds like you are in with the bean counters. Band 6 minimum for specialist medical equipment. Band 5 for PPM and repair on lesser equipment.
Band 4 for a trainee.

Lets push this trade forward not backwards you cheapskates. Pay peanuts get monkeys.

Why dont you have a look around at how much things cost on an hourly basis (just had a bill this morning with labour costing £125 an hour)

It is entirely appropriate for Band 3/4 to work on a vent with supervision depending on the depth of maintenance (real world).
Band 6 minimum to touch a ventilator? I know a number of competent lower Band's who easily perform this task routinely on Evita XL's, without supervision. They also undertake a full range of CPAP's. Banding really doesn’t come into it; it’s the competence and experience of the technician.

It all boils down to experience, (you can’t get it if you are not prepared to undertake the work). "Specialist" pertains to the depth of knowledge and experience held, not the equipment worked on, working on a ventilator does not make you a"Specialist"

Wow, why not colour code the equipment according to the ' banding' then the ' plebs' will know which equipment they can work on unsupervised. Also the end-user can request maintenance according to the colour codes "please don't send a pleb as this equipment is coded GREEN"

Excellent idea Neil! Keep them coming, Mate (you know, "thinking outside the box", and all that)!

Many plebs where you are?

But before this thread deteriorates into another slanging match, here's a thought:-

OK, the guy who fixes the Blood Cell Analyzer, the CT, the MRI, etc., etc. may be considered a "specialist". But that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows much about (for example) servicing infusion pumps, or even ripple mattresses, for that matter (not to mention electrical safety).

In a properly organised biomed shop there are always senior techs and less experienced guys. So what's the problem? How else is a bloke 'sposed to learn (improve, take on more responsibility, and all the rest)?

Last two paragraphs's, you are right there, Geoff!
Encourage newbies to work outside their comfort zones, otherwise they will never develop.
I have never been one to advocate the "you are too junior and inexperienced to work on this specialist kit"
(Its a form of snobbery which should be stamped on at source).
Indeed, the idea that only Band 6's and above should work on ventilators.....

Real World, Mate.

When you're the only tech in town, stuck out in the middle of nowhere, then "I'm sorry, but I can't even look at that, 'coz I'm only on Band 1 pay" doesn't really cut the mustard, does it?

Can't agree with Neils idea of colour coding
I'm colour blind, so it's difficult enough not swapping the live and neutral over without having to guess if it's red or green

Agree with Sean and Geoff (i hate to say), Band snobbery is dangerous. There is no problem with a Band 3/4 working "under supervision" on any HIGH RISK equipment.
By the same principal there shouldn't be a problem with a Band 6/7 out there doing PPM's.

As Geoff points to above, there is only work and resource. Demarkation is a world I don't want to work in

I think the issue of training and competence is important as is experience.

I'd like to know a few things about what CEng trainee has acheived in their portfolio and exam before I comment further, but I would hope that they will have had a number of years experience working in a role that required them to take individual responsibility if they expect a higher grading than some "Band 3/4's" who may not have followed an academia path but have gathered experience and knowledge along the way

Your giving me a bucks fizz moment there Sean. That's how it's supposed to work but unfortunately it never did, add in the financial status of the Trust and time of applying (ie their making cuts)and it might be more on the mark. I know one place where a department have had to be told not to call a similar department in the adjacent trust stupid. It's not that they are stupid it's just that their offering band 3 for the posts and the adjacent trust offer band 6. When you get a situation like that your going to get a brain drain to the other Trust.

As for the band 3/4 working on ventilators and anaesthetic equipment, I've wondered if you could actually get a living will where you can specify not to be taken to a particular hospital and perhaps specify that the equipment has been serviced by the specialist and not the trainee.

Perhaps if the VRCT ever takes off they can specify a better personal spec for these jobs.

So cynical!
For the vast majority of Biomeds, Agenda For Change did what it set out to do, recognise skills, and reward accordingly.
Don't know about Bucks Fizz (Land of make believe), a lot of guys who did the preparation/homework, and had support from their Managers celebrated with the real stuff (Champagne) at the time their bandings were approved. Proper Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance, and all that.

Read what has been said, your point about patients visiting Hospitals were junior bands are working on ventilators and (anaesthesia even) with adequate supervision requiring living wills doesn't stack up against statistical evidence. I haven't seen a sudden increase in mortality rates where specialist kit has been serviced by (God Forbid!), less than a "Specialist" Band 6/7 Biomed.

As has been pointed out, Band snobbery is a terrible thing and should be stamped out.

If another Trust offers a better band for a particular post, demand likewise, or vote with your feet (either way, stop complaining).

Hey, leave Chris alone.

His posts always reinforce my high opinion of NHS techs!

(easy now, Chris)

That adequate supervision's only going to work in a few Trusts that have a lot of bods who work mainly in their workshop.

It's a very slippery slope from saying we can have lower grades supervised, to just saying we can have lower grades.

If you want to stamp out Band snobbery you really should have one working band and a trainee band and not be arguing with management how the job can be dumbed down.

As an independent outsider (with no particular axe to grind), I would say that your point is a fair one, Chris. Let's see what response it evokes!

Meanwhile, with reference to the original post, it sounds to me like they are fishing for fees (subs, or whatever they're called).

When I worked for Global, two of us were assigned to Dialysis, me with all the experience another with a lot more paperwork. Guess who was being paid the most, I had a chat with Mo Powell and had the situation rectified, actually more than a chat but it worked. This is one of the reasons I hate banding-demarcation or whatever you want to call it. Pay the bloke what he is worth, on the other hand if you cannot get the pay you are looking for look for another job where you can.

That was good of you to get the bloke paid more, Neil!

Happy Days, Mate.

On the other hand, if you find yourself in a lousy spot, there may be something to be said for taking a drop in pay in order to move to another more (let's say) congenial (more interesting, less hassle, better location ... whatever) situation, as I have done on a number of occasions.

After all, there's more to life than just money, and who wants to be simply a wage slave, or consumer drone?

I was told by my mother a long time ago, "you spend most of your life at work, so you should be happy, if not find a job where you will be happy" excellent advice.
What was the main subject again?

Does the IPEM have it's own PPM system and protocols, if so would they make them freely available or do they expect fees to be paid first.

Your Mum gave you sound advice, Neil (I only wish I had heeded it myself).

Meanwhile, I think you may be on the wrong track regarding IPEM. Think "Medical Physics" and you may not be too wide of the mark. And I doubt that you'll be seeing many practical initiatives, like the ones you mention.

I could be wrong, of course. But just like the VRCT, although there are quite a few well-known IPEM members on this forum, we rarely hear from them.

No one says that a band whatever cant do the job but why should some pay peanuts compared to others in this country.

Supervision is ok in some situations but is it 100% while the person is working on a vent/anaes machine. If so then you are over staffed as you have just wasted 2 manhours for every 1.

Is it any wonder why some have problem recruiting experienced techs.

Also have the technicians been trained by the manufacturer or is it one of these cheapskate org's that train one person and ask them to tell everyone else how to fix it. If this is the case then are you not diluting the training.

Pay what they are worth or how much you would expect to get payed for doing their job you tight wads.

So much for A4C leveling the playing field.

Don't forget that we don't have a National Health Service as such, Billy ... just a hundred and sixty or so semi-autonomous "pretend* businesses", that are obliged to follow a load of rules ("guidelines", legislation, whatever) set down by Central Government. That is, each one "doing their own thing" in as much as they can get away with doing so.

We all know that the NHS needs properly organised (structured) technical services, with a Central Training School, Specialist Workshops, and all the rest ... plus a doubling (trebling?) of technician manpower. But somehow I doubt this will ever happen unless the present, somewhat ad-hoc, "system" collapses totally in a spectacular manner.

Meanwhile, all this bickering about which gang is the one to join, and who should represent whom, is simply a distraction. None of the "societies", "institutions" or "registers" is going to carry the fight forward, as far as I can see. Or, if they are indeed planning to do so ... when are they going to start (how long do we have to wait)?

* I say "pretend", as income is guaranteed, whether they are "successful" or not.

I have to agree with the central training facility. Bit like what Falfield was meant to be.
Have to say that that would ensure standards throughout the industry bit like our training through the services.(Have to add that since they started out sourcing the training to the units the standard did drop)

But lets have the training in the centre of the country (yes there is a country above the M25 ).
We could then stop the rather embarrassing employment spec for a trainee tech at band 4 with experience??? (You know who you are)

Reasonably central, though.

Just read the technologist section of the IPEM as linked to earler in this thread, it sounds like they want us to join three organisations, IPEM, VRCT & IEng. They must live in a different world!

Patience Grasshoppa! If you wait long enough they'll amalgamate anyway!

Remember what became of the good old Society of X-Ray Technology?

Doubt it Geoff for IPEM to amalgamate they'd have to do a bit of engineering first! One criticism of IPEM is that their all physics, perhaps a merger with the institute of physics on the other hand?

Also biomedbill technically VRCT and IEng aren't organisations, although suggesting you join them does show what the standard should be and it's not band 4.

As for that central location looking at what their actually requiring I think their taking the proverbial. A very wide range for that is essential and desirable, doesn't really leave much room for career development, this job your going to be on band 4 for a very long time. As for on call rota at band 4 that's just barmy, where's the supervision at 2am in the morning?

On the other hand, I suspect I'm not the only one of my age group who would take such a job, were it to be offered.

After all, not all of us have an overwhelming desire to set the world afire, but are content just to keep a low profile and simply get on with the work, without unrealistic expectations (from both sides).

2 am call-outs? Pah! Been there, done that (often night after night at one place I recall).

Band 4 actually states Geoff that post follows operating procedures and someone is available for reference. Also below band 5 your also supposed to be supervised. Hence where's this supervision at 2am in the morning, unless they go around in pairs?

Don't ask me, Mate. I don't write the ads.

You're right that the pretence* has to be maintained, or else pay bands will be creeping down all over the place. And before you know it, yet another "reorganisation" will be needed.

I understand what you're saying, of course ... but some of us "outsiders" don't really give a damn about all that, if you see what I'm saying.

As you may have already gathered, I would be just as happy if the good folk at the "Central Location" quantified the work to be done, then put it out to tender!

* Maybe charade would have been a better word to use.

Once you get to a band 5, do you have a separate bathroom and your own key?

No, but I believe you no longer get offered a towel to dry behind your ears and your trusted to wipe your own ass

you forgot to add the use of your own car for the band 4 position aswell as the oncall rota???

What's the matter with you guys, can't you spot a *"wind-up" when you see one?

Biomeds used to be famous for devising ever more elaborate jolly japes (back in the Good Old Days, that is).

Surely it's obvious that the guys at the "Central Location" are having a laugh?

* It rhymes with "mind", rather than "pinned"!

Is the same "Central location" the same place that made the news recently for lots of other reasons.

Seems lessons learnt aren't two words they have much experience of.

Band 4 position should be clearly defined under AfC, not how some people want to interpret it.

As mentioned by colleagues on here already to place an advertisement at this level and expecting experience and the ability to do on-call means one thing... You should be competent to work alone, on all items of equipment and have the ability to make judgement calls that can effect patient care/treatment.

An organisation has the right to advertise a post as they see fit but if they expect to employ someone fitting the requirement of the advert place here then ..good luck ... will watch the press for further details periodically

What's that saying about peanuts & monkeys? But it's up to the individual if they are happy with the (scant) salary.

Err ... "monkey see, monkey do"?

None of you blokes gets paid peanuts, Bill.

If you don't believe me, try venturing out of the "comfort zone" and have a go on the Dark Side for a while. Even then, there is zero security (as I have recently been reminded).

Meanwhile, everyone on the outside knows the reality of the situation:- that the NHS is run for the benefit of the staff, not the patients!

I think what blurrs the picture with the NHS is that we are paid in bands where most people get automatic promotions every year until they get to the top. the range for a band 4 starts at £18,400 and you would have to work for at least 6 years to get to £21,800. Geoff, I hope you are not getting any less than that with your experience and talents.
I have ventured out of the comfort zone in the past but realised which side my bread was buttered.

All this NHS (public service) battering has come about by this government drip feeding stuff to the press and pointing out that we are paying for this...so what! We have been paying for this for decades, nobody's complained before, it's just the tories looking for ways to privatise the NHS, divide and conquer. Put out the perception that the NHS is a big fat inefficient burden on our pockets and you will have the country up in arms crying for change.
The reality of the matter is that most NHS staff have suffered poor pay and conditions compared with private sector in the past. It's only through the hard work an dedication of the Unions that many staff receive a reasonable level of pay and conditions today. The fact that the private sector is suffering is due to the temporary economic situation, I'm sure when things pick up we (public sector workers) will take up our usual position behind the private sector.

That's the sort of thing that dog owners say ... when Fido has just sunk his teeth into your arse!

But, seeing that you mentioned "reality" there, Bill (and at the risk of straying off topic even further) ... here's another version of it:- the private sector is not interested in "experience" (especially, if like me, you are deemed to be "yesterday's man") ... neither, it would seem, are they much interested in "talent" either.

They just want you to get on with the work they actually pay (and want) you to do. They couldn't care less about any precious egos (or, for that matter, stories about the Good Old Days). If you're lucky, you'll get paid a reasonable, but not lavish, reward.

What they want are young, malleable, people. If you have done "all the courses" then that's great (as you are unlikely to get any training from them). And if you venture out onto the agency circuit, say ... then you'll most likely be in competition with immigrants. It wasn't the present lot (government, so-called) that set that situation in train, I might add. It might be [censored], but that's the view from where I'm standing.

So there you have it. As you say, realise where your bread is buttered, crack on with what needs to be done ... and (dare I say) quit moaning!

If we didn't moan what would we do

Bill mcg - I would suggest that the reason that you had the original e-mail is that according to the IPEM Annual Review 2011, the Technologist Advisory Group is a 'new version' of the restructured Clinical Technologist Education and Training Panel. 'Being a new group means it has spent the last few months publicising its existence and encouraging technologists to volunteer and join its ranks'.

Furthermore, they state 'The TAG main purpose is to advise IPEM on issues that are of concern to technologists and that are relevant to the work of the IPEM. We want to encourage technologists to get involved and take part in the wider work of the IPEM and we'll be making nominations onto IPEM committees and working groups'.

Hope this clarifies things.

Since your going on about "reality" and the private sector I though you might be interested in the last IET Engineering Salary Survey. It's quite old so salaries will probably have increased by now.

Junior Technician £23,853, Technician £29,779, Senior Technician £33,555

So that would equate to starting salary Band 5, main salary Band 6 and top Band 7. So much for all those big pay deals in the NHS and it was also pointed out to me recently that the private sector get far better retirement lump sums, so if anything NHS is slightly worse.

As for the "Dark Side" I think we know what that means Seems to be dark for a reason and doesn't equate to the private sector I've ever worked in.

Perhaps IPEM could do a current survey and see what the updated figures are.

I don't know which Parallel Universe you inhabit, Chris ... but it's certainly not one that I recognise.

I really don't know why you keep bleating, Mate. You're on a decent whack, in a secure position, with a pension to look forward to. All funded by the tax payer, of course. What's your problem?

ok let's wrap this up nicely then Gents.
Clearly it's another topic that needs to be locked.

Sorry Geoff don't buy that deluded Taxpayer c**p

To be fair, he's quoted figures from an independent source and not plucking them from the air so you'd have to assume they are reasonably accurate and not from a "parallel universe".
On a more anecdotal note, I was earning what I get now 6 or 7 years ago in the private sector, and know for a fact that wages have increased much more than I'm ever likely to get within the NHS.

The fact that one or two lucky guys might be raking it in over in the private sector doesn't take anything away from what I'm saying.

There are hundreds of techs in secure, comfortable positions who work in the NHS, and good luck to them. But no-one is under threat, as far as I am aware.

Meanwhile, on the "outside" there are also guys who are out of work, and struggling to find a decent position. Some of us (at our stage of the game) never will, regardless of "experience, talent" or even "enthusiasm". How does that square with what some of you guys are trying to project?

So yes, you might find that rates of pay for for those in work might look "attractive" on the face of it. But how would those figures shape up if set against all the zeroes of out-of-work techs?

Lastly, whomever comes up with those "studies" would only be talking to blokes in salaried positions, would they not? They may even have some sort of agenda (always check to see where their funding comes from). But they sure as hell won't be taking freelancers, the self-employed, job-seekers ... or charity workers into consideration.

That's the Reality of the Parallel Universe, be it Dark or brilliant shafts of light!

You cannot include out of work tech's to come to an average private sector salary figure as they could also potentially work in the NHS or other public sector body. The word "salary" is the clue here i.e. to gain a "salary" you're in work.
The picture you paint isn't recognisable to me. I've worked in a hi-tech industry where there were vast numbers of redundancies and every tech to a man has picked up work. All on decent wages. If you're good, you'll get work.

Fair enough.

But can we agree on this then:- blokes working in the NHS enjoy far greater security than those in the private sector?

That is (luckily for them) they don't need to keep moving around, "following the work", as it were?

The way things are these days, even the best of guys are likely to be out of work occasionally. And all that must balance out in the end.

Unfortunately, we're in an era of retrenchment. Meaning:- if you're in work, that's great. But if you're not, tough [censored]!

Just a wee comparison. We took over the maintenance of hoists a couple of years ago. We employed someone on an (Senior) Assistant Technical Officer grade, band 4 earning approx. £18K. Talking to the service engineers from the major supplier, they make between £25 & £30K.

They'll be made redundant next week!

Careful now, Bill ... this is going full circle.

Now you'll be flamed for taking on a guy at Band 4!

To a certain extent, one of the reasons I moved.
However, there seems to be an overwhelming perception that under the current government and their "privatisation agenda", that job security is no longer guaranteed. The feeling is that Med Phys/EBME/whatever departments are ripe for companies to cherry pick not only to make an easy profit, but to ensure their products will be utilised. You might think this isn't a bad thing, but if anything, I'd imagine it will stifle competition.
This thread is now way off topic though.....

Let's move to this one then.

Any news there?

As far as I'm aware, it's the only attempt at "privatisation" that has taken place so far.

I was hoping my hint would have worked, clearly not.

I can see that I am going to have to start deleting posts again. something I try to avoid. Thread hijacking is getting out of control.

Perhaps a time to call for moderators?

Locking thread.