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#25065 03/09/07 7:54 PM
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kit Offline OP
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I am not currently in a union as I have never seen their worth. However it is being hinted to me now that I probably would benefit from being in one as there are appeals coming up for this AFC situation. Has anyone else gone through an AFC appeal without being in a union? Would I be a fool not to join one in this climate and if I should be in one what would be recommended as representing the EBME fraternity best?

kit #25067 03/09/07 10:58 PM
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What's that? A climate of fear? Take heart, Good Buddies. Unions are yesterday's news. Do you think there's any "solidarity" about, then? Do you really expect others to stand by you, shoulder to shoulder? Forget it. It's a dog-eat-dog life now in Modern Britain.

But ... if you're not afraid of being fired, what can "they" do then? As I keep saying, good people are in short supply, so there will always be work around for those willing to do it. Hold your heads high, and refuse to be cowed down. And don't forget that there's a whole big world outside of the NHS. Come, then, to the Dark Side. smile


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
Geoff Hannis #25071 04/09/07 8:21 AM
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Unfortunately, the unions are very weak compared to pre-Thatcher days. In addition they do not represent the individual very well, apart from sending a representative with you to any meetings with management on your request; and then they will only take minutes of the meeting. There only real interest these days is on a national basis such as the current cost of living pay rise debacle.
With regard to appeals on AfC banding, you need to work the system and explore every channel possible. Never give up!!!


Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own.
Kawasaki #25072 04/09/07 9:12 AM
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Joining a union now would probably not help very much as they would not represent you for at least 3 months, and probably longer - they like to get your money first. As for AfC appeal, get information on comparability etc from elsewhere, also, if procedure hasn't been followed (and not many places did), this is always a good bargaining point. Basically, use anything and everything that is favourable to your case.

Kawasaki #25073 04/09/07 9:46 AM
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Hi Kit
The only reason i'm in the union (amicus)is because i'm too lazy to cancel it.
I joined in preparation for AFC and it was even suggested as an insurance policy (legal representation)in case i screwed up!
I suppose i'm still a member due to the current financial climate.
I climbed through hoops to get my AFC sorted all without the Unions help.
They have just recommended we accept the improved pay offer which for me is the same as the original offer (staged).
AFC ballot as i recall was 54% voted yes to it but i've yet to meet anyone who did or would vote for an uncertainty in future pay.
In summary Kit, it's up to you, but i joined for my own personal (selfish) reasons, not some notion of solidarity amongst me and my fellow colleagues.

Topper

Topper #25133 05/09/07 8:58 PM
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You know what, I think I’ll go it alone on this issue. As Topper mentions I think the unions sold there members down the river on the initial agreement to go with this AFC issue. Union members were being asked to vote for a situation that they did not know if they were going to win or lose on, and everyone I spoke to who had the vote said NO. The unions pressurised their members into accepting this scheme and there was no Plan B if there was a NO vote. It was an absolute disgrace the way union members were treated on this issue.

Geoff’s right though, it is a dog eat dog situation, but to be fair, working in the NHS is not the cut throat business you most certainly find on the dark side and which I had the mispleasure of experiencing for several years. The company I was in was poorly managed, and I found it quite sickening some of the arrogant, malevolent conduct from work “colleagues”. Maybe I was unlucky but every time I watch the lunatic behaviour of the candidates on Alan Sugars Apprentice programme it kind of reminds me of my time on the Dark side. I would only ever consider being self employed if I ever leave the NHS. Anyway enough of this, I better go and prepare my appeal.

kit #25134 05/09/07 10:16 PM
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I think the problem with the AFC vote was that the majority of Unison voted for it without actually seeing the small print. The nurses were told that they would be better off under AFC, believed it and when the small print arrived it turned out that most of them wouldn't.

As for Amicus only a small minority voted yes, but it seems that there was a big cock-up and I know a lot of workers including estates workers, who probably came off worse, never got a vote. So although the Amicus vote suggested Amicus supported it, it was not voted for by the majority. Although since Unison had already voted yes, the Amicus vote dwarfing that of Unison was rather pointless.

The company I worked for, before I joined the NHS got taken over by an American firm and basically since there wasn't any union or even staff representation they got away with murder. Thus when I joined the NHS joining the Union was one of the first things I did. Interestingly the US firm introduced a job evolution scheme from the states which rather to my surprise I saw similar handouts to when I joined the NHS! Yes, AFC is used in the states to downsize companies! Although thankfully in the NHS you get put on protected pay and not given redundancy! Anyway being a union member and not being one I can't see any difference really.


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