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edovon Offline OP
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Hello,

I am a post-graduate student of Biomedical engineering.

I am designing a ”Phantom” for training in electrical safety testing.

It is a physical device able to simulate settable electrical failures that can be measured by technicians/engineers.

The failures can be set-up before each specific test, so that the technician should try to get the actual measure (also checking the result). it should be as much similar as possible real device that should simulate also the mechanic/geometrical/physical actions that have to be done in a test. (I attached to the email my sketch).

This device could give them the possibility to train in electrical safety testing, and to improve their ability on detecting failures and on understanding the underlying problems.

Do you think this idea could have an "on field" application on field? (safety, management)
Do you have any comments or suggestion about its implementation?


Thank you smile

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I don't see the sketch. frown

Let's see if I've got this right ... you are planning to build a "dummy" piece of equipment, with hidden switches (or whatever) to enable the instructor to set up - or maybe just simulate - various fault conditions?

That takes me back almost fifty years to the days when faults* were put on the gun control system in Chieftain tanks - invariably by the judicious application of Sellotape on relay contacts - for us to fault-find ... but I digress.

OK ... two quick points:-

1) Why not use an actual piece of equipment - an old ECG Recorder, for example - and then modify that as necessary.

2) How do you plan to avoid shocking your students? shocked

Presumably, those who survive get to pass the course. smile

* TBH almost all of those "faults" were not Real World (as I found out after I had been let loose into the "field"), and I once narrowly avoided getting my head flattened between the gun (breech block) and turret roof but such an "unlikely" fault.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
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You can already buy a general simulator from Metrel but it is not “medical” focused.

https://www.metrel.si/en/shop/LABS/mi-3300.html

I don’t think such a device has much use outside a teaching environment, and most can demonstrate use and faults with normal equipment.

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edovon Offline OP
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Geoff Hannis, you understood my purpose. Your questions are also interesting!

1) I was thinking to create a "Demoboard" (like MikeX indicated here https://www.metrel.si/en/shop/LABS/mi-3300.html). SInce my field is more on biomedical engineering, I was thinking to create something specifically applicable to medical devices, with low costs of construction.

2) My idea was to create internal different sources of leakage currents (low enough to do not harm people but above the permitted threshold)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here:
* TBH almost all of those "faults" were not Real World (as I found out after I had been let loose into the "field"), and I once narrowly avoided getting my head flattened between the gun (breech block) and turret roof but such an "unlikely" fault.

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edovon Offline OP
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MikeX,

thank you for the link. I see some similarities with that device. Do you know maybe if it is possible to find its patent?

Anyway, my idea was to use it as a tool for teaching, especially in academics or in environments where electrical safety testing is not usually performed

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" ... turret roof but by such an "unlikely" fault." - I was referring (aka reminiscing) back to my own days in training (more "near misses" are available) simply to reinforce the idea that, in order to be of any lasting value, training in practical fault-finding needs to be based on faults that are likely to be encountered later when dealing with equipment in actual use. smile

In my own "early career" (that is, when I left training, and when I was still relatively keen), I use to make brief notes when I came across "interesting" faults, and sometimes even how I found the actual cause(s); any one else remember "line follow-through diagrams"? I had imagined that such notes would become useful when I became an instructor myself (something that, in the event, and luckily for me, I was later able to avoid). Unfortunately, once I had moved on to medical equipment, I had become too busy (or maybe just too lazy) to continue that practise; pity really, as I could have filled a book by now. frown

Meanwhile, if the scenario you have in mind is academia, then I would have thought that traditional teaching methods should (continue to) be sufficient. You know, diagrams and explanations and so forth, plus (perhaps) a couple of goes with contemporary test instruments. No doubt many of us on here have attended the one-day course at Eastwood Park (aka Falfield).

Remember that (despite the "column inches" devoted to the subject on forums such as this one), Electrical Safety Testing is by no means the "be all, and end all" of practical biomedical engineering. smile


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Originally Posted by edovon

My idea was to create internal different sources of leakage currents (low enough to do not harm people but above the permitted threshold)


How do you plan to simulate (demonstrate) low values of insulation resistance? think

As hinted at earlier, you may be better off (and produce more "real world" practical training sessions) by starting to collect faulty equipment that have the various "double fault" conditions already in place.

How and where to obtain such equipment? ... an appeal on this forum, or getting into the habit of attending the various medical equipment auctions (plenty of old junk ... er, useful training aids, there). smile


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Any training is mainly focused around how to use the particular safety tester and how to configure it for the equipment you are testing, in line with the EUT manufactures instructions.

Medical products are now very reliable in terms of electrical safety. The main (measured) faults will just be the protective conductor resistance followed by high applied part leakage for ultrasound probes.

I don’t think a simulator that can be set with multiple faults or combinations of faults would actually be of any benefit.

Once the basics of BS EN 62353:2014 are known and how to implement them using your available test meter you are 90% there. Simulating faults really won’t provide much benefit.

Last edited by MikeX; 03/10/19 5:34 PM.
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On another note, how many biomedical equipments are being manufactured that are 'mains' connected, most equipment is supplied with an independant power supply. Does this render the electrical safety test invalid?

Rigel, Fluke all there tests are automatic, the only training required is to put the leads/tubes/sensors in the correct positions and press a button, if you have the software installed all results will be preloaded to your database, any equipment that fails a test must be sent for repair, I have always maintained that the team assigned to PPM must conduct the PPM and report any faulty equipment back for the repair team to deal with.


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Even if the ME Equipment is connected to a separate power source it still has to be considered as part of the ME Equipment (see IEC 60601-1 section 8.2) or the combination would have to be considered a ME System. So, you still have to plug the PSU into the tester and run all appropriate tests on the combined system.

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