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swapnil Offline OP
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Hi

I am a doc from India and getting any biomedical equipement serviced here is a task in itself. On top of that companies generally dont provide any service manual for any machine in our country. Is it routine for them to do that in EU / USA? If it is then we would try and fight with backing of our association.

Thanks for your time.

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Super Hero
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That's why we like sites such as Frank's.

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Master
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generally,Doctors are divided into junior, intermediate and senior levels, and engineers or technicians are also divided into junior, intermediate and senior levels.
Junior doctors are responsible for the operation and simple maintenance of medical equipment,More inclined towards usage.
Junior engineers or technicians prefer maintenance.

Maintenance here refers to daily cleaning of the appearance, adding daily consumables, and simple repairs such as replacing shadowless lamp bulbs, replacing fuses, and other simple and easy tasks.
Repair refers to operations such as disassembling the casing, replacing circuit boards, calibrating, and repairing PCBs. These are the main tasks of mid- to senior-level engineers or technicians.

Service manuals are a controversial topic,Mainly disputes over repair rights and intellectual property rights.There is also a lot of controversy about the content of the service manual,Mainly schematic diagrams, circuit diagrams, error codes, maintenance software, repair passwords, .........
Some manufacturers provide service manuals that only contain principle introductions and simple operations, and look more like user manuals.So there is no unified standard.

This is what I know so far, welcome to add to it, thanks


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i am finding more frequently these days that manufacturers of med devices only issue service manuals to engineers that have attended the official training courses. Im also noticing that they are also putting wording such as " this certificate will expire in X years time or whenever the named person leaves the establishment in which the cert was gained" I personally dont think this is a bad idea as i have often seen techs/engineers obtain certification via NHS funding only to leave for one of these private firms that some of us have trouble with.

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Super Hero
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The best time to bring up the issue of service manuals (and any other consideration, such as training and spare parts) is during pre-purchase negotiations. After that you have more or less given up any "power" you may have had, until the time comes (perhaps) for a repeat order (remembering the maxim "once bitten, twice shy").

By the way, are you working at a Government or Private hospital?

@carl:- on the other hand, I have known techs/engineers obtain certification via their own funding ... generally forking out more than NHS guys on the same course (the only expense to those NHS guys being "beer money").

The bullying attitude of some manufacturers (and their authorised agents) that you mention is well known. In various forms it has been going on for decades: but as long as senior people let them get away with it, they shall continue. The NHS is a Big Firm. and if people at the top cried "enough", then this (and much else) could be sorted out in a jiffy. But don't hold your breath. Myself, I am a great supporter of the "Right to Repair", but can understand why Government controlled organisations may not be keen on that idea.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Hannis
Originally Posted by daisizhou
Some manufacturers provide service manuals that only contain principle introductions and simple operations, and look more like user manuals. So there is no unified standard.
I cannot disagree with any of that; some manufacturers still provide excellent manuals, but "proper" service manuals (complete with explanations of circuits, circuit diagrams, parts lists and all the rest) seem to be very rare nowadays. I guess their production is an expense that has now been trimmed back. That as well as the resources (time and technical authors) it must have taken to produced those quality manuals.

Perhaps we should also bear in mind that much equipment these days is manufactured in non-English speaking countries, so there is a translation issue (cost) as well.

BS-4899 was a Standard to do with the production of technical manuals. It was based on the once famous BS-4884 which is, alas, no longer current.



In my opinion?No additional expenses or excessive resources are required,Because the after-sales support engineers of product manufacturers also need these manuals or materials, and also need training, learning, and practice(The need for consistency and a unified voice).....In addition, the schematic diagram and circuit diagram come from the designer. Since it can be made into a product such as a PCB circuit board, there must be a schematic diagram or circuit diagram.
The key question is whether producers are willing to share.(Many manufacturers give the following reasons: 1. It requires professionals to repair, 2. It protects the safety of users or equipment, 3. It requires certification...)



And with the deepening of informatization,More control is replaced by computers or controlled by programs?Passwords, software, etc. will become more important than schematics and structural explosion diagrams.
In general, the probability of successful self-repair is getting lower and lower.Especially some noble instruments and equipment

During the negotiation period before purchase, users do not know the detailed after-sales service of the product(Usually 1 year warranty after-sales service).The manufacturer only provides technical parameters, product brochures, Price list and other non-repair related information.Usually, the people who come into contact with the manufacturer are the purchasing staff, while the people who do maintenance are the engineers or technicians.Quote a proverb:sweep the snow from your own door step, don't worry about the frost on your neighbor's roof.


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Super Hero
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@daisizhou:- Yes, I take all the points you raise.

But how is the humble in-house biomed able to overcome? Well, once I refused to accept a piece of broken equipment into the workshop remembering that the "top table guys" (bean counters at a private hospital) had rejected my input at the purchasing stage some time before regarding (what they termed the "unnecessary expense" of) manuals etc.. In the end the item was sent away for repair (at great expense), and a manual ordered. I don't remember ever receiving the manual, but that's another story.

As I have remarked on here a few times before, sometimes you just have to "fight your corner".

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Master
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Many times,If your superiors, bosses, or anyone in power don't support you, everything will be in vain.
After all, most of the staff are unprofessional, and they also command you.

What we consider to be a correct foresight is a nuisance to them.


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