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Posted By: Alan Glass Philips XL Defib batteries - 25/03/13 3:52 PM
Our 98 Defibs have been due battery change since last Aug/Sept. Is anyone else awaiting delivery of the XL battery pack?

I did the battery test last year on all devices and found an 8% reject rate. I'm now concerned this may have increased in the last six months.

Batteries were first promised in November.
A recent 'Philips 'letter dated 6th February 2013 is still unclear on delivery.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 25/03/13 4:33 PM

What's all that about, Alan? Why are you waiting? Care to explain a little further?

More "battery blues" ... ? think
Posted By: Lee S Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 26/03/13 1:20 PM
Hello

There was a recall on a batch of Heartstart XL batteries last year (MDA/2012/077)
Quote:
Medical Device Alert
Ref: MDA/2012/077 Issued: 08 November 2012 at 14:00
Device
Batteries for HeartStart XL defibrillator/monitor.
Battery part number M3516A.
Batch labelled ‘Made in Taiwan’ with ‘Date of Manufacture’ code ‘R-2011-12’.
Manufactured by Philips and distributed by Philips and Cardiac Services UK & Ireland.


with Philips replacing the affected batteries; is this a knock on effect?



Lee
Posted By: bcarlisle Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 26/03/13 1:25 PM
We are the same here, awaiting delivery of batteries since las September.

All should have been changed in November. 30ish

Must chase it again, thanks for reminding me.
Posted By: Charlie A Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 04/04/13 1:52 PM
Contacted Philips in March chasing an order for defib batteries and was told they hope to have some Q1 2013 but that was all they could offer.
Posted By: RoJo Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 04/04/13 3:00 PM
Q1 2013 That would be sometime between 1st january and the 31st March. Unless they meant the financial quarter startin on 1st April.
Now if they used a general generic battery there would be several manufacturers they could buy it from.... and so could we...Oh I get it now.
Robert
Posted By: billy11 Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 04/04/13 6:03 PM
I spoke to them today they now say mid June is the earliest expected date. Just out of interest has anyone take to fitting standard 12v 2.3 ah batteries? I have just had to do this today one of our batteries was failing after 4 discharges, it was 2 years and 3 months old. We have been waiting since September for our order.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 04/04/13 6:34 PM

Again I ask:- what is the (real) problem here?

Technology being introduced before it has been sufficiently developed? think

Whatever it is ... there has to be an engineering solution. So what is it?
Posted By: billy11 Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 6:22 AM
The Philips manual suggests you can use non original batteries so maybe we all should. The original batteries were Panasonic, they withdrew from making this type of battery some time ago so it would appear to be a production problem with the new supplier?
Posted By: RoJo Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 7:59 AM
What is wrong with buying the batteries from XXX* rather then Philips? They are the same battery at the end of the day.
Robert
* Insert supplier name of choice
Posted By: Lee S Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 11:54 AM
The XL has a small metal stud inside the unit to prevent normal Panasonic et al batteries fitting.

On the Philips supplied battery just below the battery connectors there is a round indentation to take this metal stud. It looks like a 6mm diameter drill has been drilled in 2mm in to the battery about 14mm from the bottom edge (all measurements approx.).

Lee
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 12:42 PM

Thank you, Lee. smile

OK, let's see who can come up with the best "engineering solution" here. whistle
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 1:33 PM
We have replaced many batteries with non-original. Remove the packaging and replace the individual batteries, unless it is a single sealed battery. There are manufacturers worldwide, especially handy for the "brokers" of this world.
Posted By: brains Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 2:49 PM
I had thought it was common knowledge regarding the specific battery required in the XL which Lee has pointed out.

I’m sure also that I remember a few years ago now a post on this forum regarding why this is - if my memory is what it once was, it’s to do with a Thermistor in the battery back, or some other 'technology' anyway. The point being it’s not just a 'battery cell'.

Anyway, should we be going down the discussion lines of 'alternative' batteries being used in Defibs?!? High risk equipment and life saving. It goes against the MHRA (and others) guidelines, not to mention the manufacturers, if as state above, intelligence is required.

However, this aside, I read with interest this post as last year (before the FSN notice which came out (Sept 2012), we experienced Philips XL batteries (supplied by Philips and EuroEnergy) being manufactured in Taiwan and the US, with the Taiwanese ones not meeting the charge time (200J <3mS). As a result and investigation Philips extended the spec.

I wonder therefore if this is the underlying reason for supply delays.
Posted By: Lee S Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 3:07 PM
If you peel off the black Philips label from one of the Taiwan batteries the I-Ban International label underneath says "No thermostat".

Lee
Posted By: billy11 Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 3:12 PM
You are quite right from what I remember, however, the defib can recognise non original batteries and as a result reduces the charging current to prevent damage. The point here is many defibs in use have batteries fitted beyond Philips recommended replacement interval of 18 months and with delivery not ecpected for 2-3 months when would it be considered necessary to use some form of alternative? As I mentioned in an earlier post we have been waiting since September and some machines have exceeded 2 years since last battery replacement. I have taken the decision to use a standard 12v 2.3 ah battery in a machine in a very low risk area ie always with an availible ac supply.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 3:13 PM

@Lee: Well, there you go. whistle

@Brains: common knowledge or not (and probably the latter), I can't help wondering how many lives this "life saving" kit is actually going to save if the batteries are not up to the job.

Is it just me, or is this stuff (correctly sizing batteries, and selecting appropriate technology at the design stage) not just a bit ... er, basic (fundamental, whatever)? think
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 3:23 PM

Billy, if I were you I would get all that firmly noted on the Trust Risk Register (if they still have them, that is).

Never let the Big Shots get away with saying they "were unaware". That's what they're paid £££ Mega Money for:- taking responsibility. smile
Posted By: brains Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 3:36 PM
I’m not surprised Lee, laughable really albeit worrying.

Billy, I agree, it’s an ‘evaluation of risk’ process to offset and clearly any battery is better than a failing one. I do also agree for once with Geoff in that it should be an item for the risk register.

Let’s hope it is resolved soon, and in the ‘correct’ way and for the right reasons.
Posted By: RoJo Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 4:57 PM
Here is a question for discussion.
The defib with batteries that are older than recommended is used to resus a patient but the patient dies.
The lawyers start crawling over everything and find out that there are "old" batteries in use. Then they start earning their money and suing.
Who is to blame? The hospital for not following the manufacturers recommendations? The supplier for not making the batteries available? The EBME department for not fitting an alternative after due diligence of risk assessment etc? No-one, the defib worked?

Lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance.

But this is the real world and it might happen.
Robert
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 05/04/13 5:19 PM

Ah, the Blame Game. frown

Two quick thoughts on that one:-

1) The Trust Risk Register (as already mentioned)
2) Lawyers don't earn money ... they leech it.

OK ... in your scenario the defib with the "old" battery worked as it should have. So it literally delivered the goods, and (presumably) there was a record made of that. So here's the judgment:- no case to answer. Next case, please! whistle
Posted By: RoJo Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 08/04/13 1:27 PM
A friend of mine in St John's told me that they had shocked a patient "out in the field" and they died. The defib operated correctly and delivered the shocks, a couple of cardiologists said that the patient could never have been revived no matter what. But the St John's were successfully sued as the defib was a couple of days overdue its service.
The lawyers certainly leech their money even from worthy organisations. This was just a grab for money and nothing else.
But it does highlight the problem and is the grounds for my question.
Robert
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 08/04/13 1:49 PM

Clearly a case where a quick bit of "sticker maintenance" might have saved the day. whistle

And, perhaps I should add, an example of one of the reasons that I've given up doing biomed work myself:- you spend all your life trying to "do a bit of good", only to lose everything when some [censored] decides to "do a number" on you. What's the point in carrying on? frown
Posted By: billy11 Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 16/05/13 5:40 PM
The new batteries have started to arrive, hidden in the box is a new instruction leaflet from Philips now recommending battery capacity checks every three months and replacement at twelve months
rather than the previous eighteen months. Shows Philips have a lot of confidence in the new batteries. Interesting to see if the price will reduce!
Posted By: RoJo Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 17/05/13 8:03 AM
But sales will increase if you follow their recommendations - is this just a clever marketing ploy to cover costs?
Robert - ever the cynic
Posted By: Alan Glass Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 28/05/13 8:05 AM
Thanks to everyone for replying to this topic.

100 new batteries arrived today.

As part of the original tender/purchase agreement Philips were to supply new batteries for the first two cycles of replacement. They stated that each cycle was required every 24 month.

This then meant that the next purchase of batteries was not due till the '7th year of ownership'.

I am expecting Philips to supply 100 batteries each year until the above is reached.
Posted By: Alan Glass Re: Philips XL Defib batteries - 27/06/14 1:49 PM
Further to my last post all batteries were capacity tested in November 2012 with an 8% failure rate. (Failures replaced immeadiatly)

All batteries were replaced in May 2013 after a 9 month delay in supply.

i.a.w. the new instruction all batteries were replaced again in May 2014 (one year later).

I am currently testing the second removed set.
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