Reading the posts on interview questions alot were technical. How much circuit board repairs do you do in your jobs (NHS and the dark side).

What's that ... candidates for technical positions being asked technical questions at interviews? We can't be having that, surely!

What about their "Yuman Rights" if they don't know the answer(s)?

Far better (that is, politically correct, and fair ... to them, that is) to hire them on the basis of their Lie Sheet (er, I mean CV) and then spend the next five years trying to find a way of getting rid of them!

Meanwhile, back to the question ... I presume you mean fault finding and repairs at circuit level (replacement of faulty components, and such). Unfortunately (and setting aside the question of whether it is economically justifiable), a lot of modern equipment is difficult to repair (SMD, and all the rest). However, if (like me) you tend to limit your activities to what we might call the retro equipment scene, there is still much fun to be had, in the time honoured fashion, in actually fixing the kit. And when it comes to circuit boards per se ... I have even been known to wash them. Yes, that's right, with hot soapy water (although I should point out that it's best to do this after disconnecting from the mains)!

There is still quite a bit of equipment that can be worked on at circuit board level, but it is getting less and less. As Geoff has mentioned I would rather hire someone with technical experience rather than just a PCB swapper, swapping boards until they find the right one, A lot of these "swappers" usually work for contracting companies due to obvious reasons.

Actually, swapping boards is often the quickest way of pinning down the fault! The question is then what happens after the faulty board has been identified. That is, does it get repaired in-house?

Answer ... no it usually doesn't! Why? Lack of time, and too many other pressing demands, most likely.

But (as I have already said), some of us are no longer constrained by such matters as serving the customers, but are untethered enough to be able to concentrate on actually fixing (old, usually) kit!

Not very much these days. It maybe uneconomical to spend many hours trying to diagnose the failed component(s). Most of the time our focus are on the turnaround time rather.

One way of approaching such repairs is to have a guy devoted to them. By that I mean a tech, typically a grizzled old veteran (not that I know anyone like that, of course) pottering about at the back of the workshop, and gainfully employed (part-time perhaps) at circuit-level fault finding and repairs. That can prove to be a cost-effective way of dealing with things.

Meanwhile, the "young bucks" can continue to tear around the hospital, responding to more urgent matters (like impressing the nurses).

Hi guys.........

That a nice one Geoff...........(impressing the nurses). Yeh back to the topic what Geoff said is true now day, now day young buck does sit and troubleshoot like old veteran.But at same time the turn round time is very important in Hospital environment.

When I first started I did some but very little now. I'm not sure I have the skills or confidence to do anything too complicated as I have done so little. If you started work now I'm not sure when you would be able to learn such skills.

any how now day most of the part are like difficult to change,due to SMD level part are small and not easy to solder by using normal solder and need to have blower type soldering iron. The PCB board also have so many level of layer, so need to be careful when handling this pcb boards.

I've not attempted to solder (or desolder) SMD components myself, as I reckon it's best left to those with greater dexterity and keener eyesight (one of the few jobs for the "young bucks", then). But I know people who can do it. One guy even builds his own boards with SMD stuff on there. There are also videos on You-Tube that offer some nice demonstrations. Just search on "solder" or "smd".

A problem with SMD repair is that most SMD components are glued down before soldering!

Most EBME departments are not geared up for surface mount repair work, most companies will offer a service exchange board anyway. As for the grizzled old veterens yes we all have one or two trying to do this type of repair, perhaps they should move with the times if they are able!

Circuit boards can be expensive it may be worth a couple of hours of someones time to try to repair them, but turn around time can be a problem and long back lists of repairs, like mine, best get back to work!

Would also depend on the equipment involved. You may be working on a piece of life critical equipment which, should the worst happen, may be quarantined and investigated. The first question asked would be "who did that repair and why?".

I have previously worked in industry ( shock horror!!), there I reworked Surface Mount Devices on a daily basis. It is not actually that difficult if you get a decent temperature controlled heat blower ( and NOT the ones used for heat shrink, they will kill boards for a pastime)and take a little care.

Now in the NHS I have found I am not really allowed to rework boards, the reason being if I use a substitute component from the one supplied by the manufacturer, then I am told it could be deemed " re-engineering or altering the original design ", and in such circumstances then I become the person liable for the indemnity insurance!!!

So now I do not rework SMD.

And board swapping is the norm!

Better not to fix the kit, then?


... not a "repair", then?

Yes guys (welcome to the forum, by the way) ... in our "industry", the equipment manufacturers (and their appointed servicing agents) have been extremely successful at instilling fear into the trembling heart of any tech who has the audacity to actually want to fix equipment.

It's one of the major reasons that some of us are not even interested in working for the Mighty NHS.

All that may be very well (in the minds of some, that is) in government sponsored (tax-payer funded) hospitals in "rich" countries, like the UK. But it doesn't really go down too well in other parts of the (real) world, I'm afraid.

In this case then there is no need to go to college, we can train people as 'board swappers' Change all the boards until you you find the faulty one, if it is not the board then swap the kit. Had a problem with a defib, the battery was no longer available, found another that had the same specs but physically different, couple of 'modifications' and the defib returned to the end-user and the end-user is very happy.

The other "answer" would seem to be to carry Indemnity Insurance.

Imagine the scenario:-

Geoff (humble tech) to Boss ... "Er, it looks like I've knackered that defib, then, Boss"!

Boss to Geoff ... "Are you £££ insured?"

"Errm , why, yes ... but what about the patients?"

Boss ... "Oh, that's alright, then" (silence about the patients)

PS: more from the humble tech:- swapping (expensive) boards in ultrasound kit is great fun ... you generally end up with more faulty boards than you started with! Hey, ho.

After the repair you return the kit to the end-user, you demonstrate that the kit is working the end-user then signs your service order. Now where does the responsibility lie if something goes wrong?

Regarding Ultrasound, the Siemens, GE and other contracted companies spend days doing this at their cost!

Yes. Yes. But people here are referring to the NHS. The regime there likes to have people (not only the patients, but the staff as well) in a constant state of anxiety. I've never really understood why, but I've observed it many times over. I can only conclude that it's something to do with control.

Don't forget that we're talking here about a country that has a higher number of surveillance cameras per capita than any other place in the world, and thousands of new laws written down every year.

We also have people (paid for by us) who go around checking that the lids on our garbage bins are closed, and that they are only put out on the "correct" day (around here, that's every second Monday morning). We also have an organisation with the initials "SS" (?) who snatch babies from maternity wards (see recent Press reports). Oh yes, it's such a Happy Land. And one of unbounded joy, peace and harmony!

It seems that Big Brother will only be happy when everyone has a criminal record. But, as we all know, Big Bother (and Auntie Nanny) not only knows best, but truly loves us all as well. Roll on the 6th of May.

Mr.Geoff (the last Free Man of England ... they'll never take me alive)

Hi, and welcome to you too!

The point of going to college is to be able to board swap with some intelligence, not the change each board one at a time until it works, it is not a set of christmas tree lights after all.

To repair a board has to be done to approved standards, the indemnity requires that any "modification or repair" be done as approved by the original manufacturer. They are not going to let you do the repairs as it kills the cash cow they have. Face it, how many of you have been on an approved manufacturers course to repair to component level?

Patients are a prime responsibility, and that is another reason to use highly trained and competent technicians.

Well it is nice to see that this industry has as much fire in its feelings as every other one I have worked in, nice to see guys passionate about their work and keen to kick for change.

Let's hope that we all get to do some "real" repairs soon, and then we will all be happy.

And have a go at the SMD reworks, they really are fun.

Very good.

Soldering etc. SMD has been well demonstrated on a number of YouTube videos.

You're right about having a go. Best to try out your new found skills on a few junk boards first. After that (like most other practical skills), it's a question of practice, practice and er, practice.*

Passion? Keen to kick? Oh yes, I can do that! Ha, ha.

* Perhaps I had better admit that I haven't tried it yet myself. Blokes with younger eyes and steadier hands do a far better job! My (pathetic?) excuse is that most of the stuff I work on is at least twenty years old! And I'm OK with transistors, resistors and capacitors et al.

Having worked in PCB test Engineering and semiconductors I'm well aware of how things work in other industries (the "real world").
Yes, I think a good level of fault finding to component level should be a given for any tech. However, we live in an increasingly litigeous society and I'd rather replace a PCB than end up in court. A sad situation perhaps, but that's how things are.

I grew up with the notion that you find the faulty part(s) & carry out the necessary repair. I too worked for a very large manufacturer & carried out SMD repairs on a daily basis, & as such I try to still do as much as I can to keep from going too rusty.
It seems that college students these days don't have the faintest idea of what a single component does, let alone be able to desolder it (When I was last in college a chap behind me asked his colleague if the diode he had was polarised.....)
I also think the problem starts outside of any schooling. As a child there was always something doing at home be it electronic, mechanical or driven by an engine. This helps develop core skills that just can't be taught in a couple of years.
Anyway, back here, I still carry out component repairs on many items unless they are directly patient connected, which my Managers are very happy with as often the kit is turned around quicker than sending it back to the OEM & is often £K's cheaper.

Touché! Good Man! Bravo! (and even ...) Encore!

As I've said many times before, it's all a matter of attitude, mindset ... and yes, compassion.

But (by the number of times it gets mentioned on this forum) it seems that the younger ones are more frightened about ending up in Court!

I would counter that notion with this:- how often does that happen, and if it did, what was the outcome (meeting the firing squad at dawn)?

Or ... could it be just an excuse for not simply cracking on and attempting a repair? Now, there's a thought!

But what we're all wondering is:- what was his colleague's response?

It was something like: "Er...Yeah I think so" after a long pause!
Scary thing is, this was 2nd year HNC students. Also throughout my ONC & HNC there was very little emphasis on fault finding.

You never stop enjoying the feeling of satisfaction you get when you find & fix a fault on any piece of equipment be it 2 years old or 20. Like many EBME engineers, I joined the TV trade when I left school & still enjoy a dabble now and then when the old Sony monitors drift in from our more aged stack systems!

I do also feel that things may eventually go full circle & we will be encouraged to keep equipment alive the 'old fashioned way' in a bid to reduce waste in the future (I hope so anyway!).

TV trade? That will cheer up Big Tony no end, inshallah.

For myself I concur 100% with what you're saying. Remember Meccano? That's where it all began for blokes of my era, I reckon. It certainly was in my own case.

Sadly, I have met too many techs who aspire to be biomeds (not all of them youngsters, either), who in my opinion (and, as you must know, I'm always happy to advise, good or bad) need, shall we say, to look elsewhere for their vocation! They simply lack the enthusiasm for all things technical ... from anaesthetics to x-ray, and ASCII to Xenon (if you see what I'm saying).

Frankly, some folk see it (biomed, that is) as an "easy job in comfortable surroundings" ... and then spend most of the time whinging about pay grades, perks, and all that [censored]. In fact, money seems to be their main motivator. Missing the point (and dare I say, the joy) of the thing by a good Country Mile.

But was the diode polarised? In a way, yes ... why not? It sounds to me like the guy was well on the way to an understanding of what was going on!

I feel lucky to have been involved with electronics from school, that interested me in studying for an OND in electrical and electronic engineering.

I found this course the most interesting and useful courses I had done. There was one component we studied Black and White TV, Colour TV which included a practical fault finding exam (part of the city and guilds exams)

Now a days I don't know what they study at college or tech

Me neither.

But let me tell you that the hardest course I ever did myself was REME Artificer training. It was hard enough even qualifying to get on the darned thing in the first place. Many good guys didn't even pass that first hurdle. That was back in the days when "only the strong" (committed etc.) survived. And the evil sods in charge even failed blokes in the final weeks of (what was) an eighteen month course. In fact, they watched you the whole time, scribbling crappy notes in their little notebooks, ready to be dragged out again at "judgment day".

Nothing else that I've done, either before or since, was as demanding as that. And (by the way) it was a marriage breaker too!

It was the only thing I tried in the army that I seriously thought about "jacking" (as in, "is all this really worth it"?) ... rather than simply being chucked off! Ha, ha.

Anyone who has successfully gone through all that gets my immediate respect!

What's all this got to do with circuit board repairs? Not much really ... except (as I said before):- "it's all a matter of attitude, mindset"!

By way of an update (and kicking this thread back into play, for a while at least), and having cast around for a younger tech (but failing to find one gullible enough), I can now report that since my last post under this topic, I have indeed "had a go" with replacing SMD components. Only resistors, fuses and such, though (nothing overly ambitious).

Not the most beautiful repairs I have ever done, I'll freely admit. But I doubt that anyone but me will ever see (and not admire) my "handiwork"!

Two things I found useful were:- 1) Dabbing a bit of Superglue under the component in an attempt to hold it in place whilst by shaking 12 W iron approached. And 2) A x5 watchmakers' eye-glass screwed into my right socket (my best eye, in theory at least).

Meanwhile, as far as I'm concerned, it's definitely a case of:- more practise required!

OMG I can't believe you just advised people to dab a bit of Superglue under the components.

RS use to sell a smd adhesive but now I can no longer find it any more (it's not the Tak Pak), should give you a idea how popular it was. It's really only used for pick and place machines.

What you'll find more useful is if you get the component flat, hold it with the tweezers, put a bit of solder on the iron and quickly soldier one side. You can then release the component and soldier the other end and clean up the original end.

What is actually useful is: 1) A pair of fine nose tweezers and round nose tweezers. 2) Fluorescent magnifying light (unless you really do want to look like Patrick Moore? ) 3) RS flux pen

Shock! Horror!

I'm not advising folk to do anything, Chris. Just relating a tale. Let "them" do whatever they please! In fact I'm hoping they will (and are), ready to share their experiences (hopefully of success) with us all here.

Obviously, you can use any number of methods to hold stuff in place whilst you attempt to make a reasonable job of soldering it. Blue-Tack, Sellotape, ... nose bogies if you prefer!

Yes ... I've tried "dabbing" with solder and all that, but sometimes those components are just so small! And it goes without saying that you need to prepare the board as best you can before having a go (and let's be honest, you often only get the one chance) ... wetting the solder pads, cleaning as well (I dare not mention what with, by the sound of things).

Yes, tweezers, poking sticks (needles), and all the rest. Whatever is available. And yes, I like to use liquid flux, as well.

Notice too that I haven't yet mentioned the other part of the fun. Namely, removing the failed component (or the debris that marks where it once was).

Bench mounted magnifiers are great* ... if you're at your bench, that is.

* Expensive, too.

As someone who used to run a pick and place workshop i would recommend this
http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-loctite/96scrp15ags84-25g/solder-paste-96scrp15ags84-25g/dp/1115454

I have removed surface mount processors and replaced them with little more that this stuff a good clean soldering iron and a magnifying glass.(and some solder braid- just incase!)

I have stopped using RS online as it never finds stuff that you know for a fact they supply!

A bit pricey, though, Mate.

I shall need to be on the lookout for an alternative.

OK ... here we go!

There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube if anyone needs them.

The price is out weighed by the ease of use and not damaging components, you can use it more than once too(needs to be kept in fridge)

So what's the resistance of nose bogies? Even a cooked one's at that!

You shouldn't really need anything to hold the components down, except for perhaps these extra fine point tweezers, if you don't watch out anything you use to hold components down usually ends up messy. You'll just have to practice more.

As for removing components you'll also find that for small components you can float them off the pads if you add more solder. I've also used one of these very easy but then again expensive.

It looks like we're all agreed, then. SMD circuit board repairs are worth having a go at, if only for the practice!

But you need a decent set of appropriate tools, and various other bits and pieces if you're to have any hope of success.

Plus, of course (and this hasn't been mentioned yet) availability of the components that need to be replaced. And these are sometimes (often?) hard to identify, let alone source.

Meanwhile, RS 567-581 looks interesting. As does the stuff available from MR. Good word, that:- "Chipbonder".

But eBay also beckons!

and the other thing you need is a steady hand, so that counts me out, hands of a neuro surgeon, no way

That's what too much "wine" does for you, Mate. Not to mention coffee.

Try bananas ... they should calm you down a bit!

Hello all,

Many years ago i purchased a gas soldering iron from RS which had interchangeable heads; one of these heads was described as a hot gas nozzle for heat shrink etc.

With this item, a good solder paste and much care I managed to remove and replace surface mount ICs (not for the faint hearted); replacing simple components was easy, it was not removing the components next to them that was difficult.

Lee

The trick is not to unsolder with the heat gun! but cut out the component that you are replacing (who needs a faulty component!)
I find a scalpel will cut through processor legs with ease and then the legs can be removed with an iron, by just brushing them.
If you want to go into replacing surface mount stuff the real way then this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PACE-PRC-2000-SOLD...#ht_4262wt_1139
is a bargain! best type i have ever used.

Scott.

That looks like a nice piece of kit, Scott.

Pity that it's not an auction (rather than a BIN* deal), then I would have had a punt at it!

It seems that Aoyue is one of the "names" for this sort of thing.

* "Buy It Now".

It's not been snapped up yet, I notice, Scott.

110 volts working, by the way.

I see that the seller has a nice line in electronic components as well.

How about this one, for example?

I had no idea that people collect processors!

saying that i have 100 27c256 eproms on there at the moment and a couple of hundred 86000cpu's too!

I hear that one of the very first Apple computers is to be sold at Christies tomorrow.

The Apple-1 is said to be one of the 200 or so hand-built by Steve Wozniak (with help - or moral support, whatever - from his mate Steve Jobs).

It would have been without casing, power supply, keyboard or monitor ... but it did come with a pre-assembled motherboard (which was considered a major step forward at the time).

The computer is expected to sell for between £100,000 and £150,000. It would have been sold for $666.66 in the summer of 1976.

Rare original 'Apple-1' computer sold by Steve Jobs





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...-Christies.html

Is that one you made earlier, Huw?

Nice "then and now(ish)" shots of Steve & Steve, though, eh?

Note as well that it is the second photo in the piece that shows what is actually up for grabs. Fancy having a punt at it?

if you want a cheapy rework station I use one of these, does the job well enough and does not risk waving scapels near fine tracks trying to cut legs off. I remove and replace with this.

cpc hotair rework tool

Interesting.

Which accessories did you go for ... or did you take them all?

Off thread

Lee

I just use a couple of ordinary nozzles of different sizes, never had much joy with the chip shaped ones, although a little metal heat shield is useful to protect other devices when removing big components ( i make my own out of scrap ally)