EBME Forums
Posted By: JoLee Banding - 19/06/09 10:06 AM
Rightio another question that will open a can of worms methinks! rolleyes I am interested in what banding people are on when responsible for managing an equipment library.
This is controversial, as I know there is a huge mix of banding and skill bases around, but could anyone let me know if they are a Band 6 and if so what their JD is? Is anyone a qualified nurse and what band they are at?

I am a nurse and am currently on a Band 5, but manage staff and have responsibilities beyond my current banding - hence I am considering attmpting a re banding, as you might have guessed?
Any help would be appreciated. confused
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 19/06/09 10:35 AM

Surely the pay band should be pegged to the job, not the person? If an academic genius chooses to work in an Equipment Library (or, indeed, as a hospital porter ... or anything else for that matter), that's OK. It's up to them. And, personally, I admire such people (I sometimes do work that some would regard as menial myself).

But they should not also expect special treatment when it comes to pay, just because they have a PhD (or whatever). smile
Posted By: KM Re: Banding - 19/06/09 11:31 AM
The banding should be for the job not the individual,thats right.
The overriding thing that affects what band your post is given is who sits on the evaluation banding panel and how awkward they want to be.
We had lots of trouble and eventually the whole department went to full JAQ. Even then we heard from a wall that had ears that a SNM who sat on a panel argued that we didnt do core things within our function.
Best bit of advice I got was find a bod thats sat on job evaluation panels and is friendly to you request and knows a bit about what you do. Then let them pick your JAQ to pieces before you give it in.
And dont underestimate the power of descriptive wording, panels have long list of what a word means e.g difference between manage and organise. They will take you very literally in what you put down on paper.


Posted By: RoJo Re: Banding - 19/06/09 11:33 AM
As geoff says it is the job description not the person who gets the band.
Go through your job description and score it against the AfC rules and see what band it comes out at then add in lots of things to score you points.
E.G. "Frequently lifting heavy loads" rather than just "moving equipment".
The big points scorers are managing a budget and high qualifications. Nursing is degree level but if you put in that you need further qualifications or experience equivalent to higher qualifications you will score more points.

Rememebr points mean prizes.
Robert
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 19/06/09 11:35 AM

I appreciate that it's not your system, Karl. But are we meant to be impressed by any of that?

Ditto Robert.

Keywords. Catch phrases. Ticking boxes. What a lousy system!

Which (over-paid, incompetent) baboon came up with all that, I wonder?

To me, the whole thing stinks! frown
Posted By: RoJo Re: Banding - 19/06/09 11:38 AM
Yes, but these are the rules we have to play by like it or not.

Robert

Still on a Clinical Scientist pay scale because of the poor AfC banding
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 19/06/09 11:42 AM

Out of respect for my good friend JoLee ... I must decline to comment further! frown
Posted By: Kawasaki Re: Banding - 19/06/09 12:42 PM
To be fair ROJO and to pick up on your own point, the banding relates to the job and not the person. Therefore if you have decided to remain on a Clinical Scientist grade because your AfC banding placed you at a point where there was no advantage or even a disadvantage with regard to pay, then you can't blame the system for not rewarding the role and recognising you the individual.
Posted By: JohnBhoy Re: Banding - 19/06/09 1:52 PM
I did not think a clinical scientists pay was all that bad to be fair...
Posted By: Lee S Re: Banding - 19/06/09 2:34 PM
Getting back to Jo's orginal question, I put this reply in a previous thread:-


Quote:
To match an AFC job description for banding, two sections ‘must be’ matched; the Knowledge, training and experience (section 2) and Freedom to Act (section 12), you may then fail to match up to 4 of the other sections and as long as you reach the relevant job evaluation score you should get the band.



The staff on the matching panel will not know many of the jobs that they are evaluating; so it is up to the person writing the job description to ensure that the required wording is covered, (for example if the Job profile says “analysing faults in complex multifaceted equipment put it in your job description). If you go for re banding then ensure you use the words from the job profile to make it easy for the evaluation panel to see that you tick the boxes.

Lee
Posted By: RoJo Re: Banding - 19/06/09 2:37 PM
Clin scientist is a long scale. From very low to very high.
Posted By: JoLee Re: Banding - 19/06/09 3:46 PM
Thank you very much thus far for the replies. smile
Posted By: Quinny Re: Banding - 20/06/09 7:38 PM
I am watching this with interest Jo, i am currently re writing my JD.
Its very difficult because there are other folk in the Trust with the same job title as me, but because we work in different depts, our JD's are very different.

Any one any suggestions about how to get over this? I dont think that it will wash with the panel personally.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 20/06/09 8:11 PM

Er, get the job title changed somehow? smile
Posted By: Topper Re: Banding - 22/06/09 8:40 AM
Bandings here are as follows:

Medical Equipment Library (MEL) 2x staff on B5. (When these staff are replaced, they will be graded B2.)
Clinical Resource Centre (new bed / pressure relief decontam and repair facility) 3x staff on B2 and 1x Tech on B5.
Medical Device Trainers 1.5 staff on B7 both from Tech background. The other 0.5 staff was ITU nurse.(B7 for her training role).
Topper
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 22/06/09 2:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Topper
Bandings here are as follows:

Medical Equipment Library (MEL) 2x staff on B5. (When these staff are replaced, they will be graded B2.)
Clinical Resource Centre (new bed / pressure relief decontam and repair facility) 3x staff on B2 and 1x Tech on B5.
Medical Device Trainers 1.5 staff on B7 both from Tech background. The other 0.5 staff was ITU nurse.(B7 for her training role).
Topper


Interesting. Topper what exactly are the duties of the band 2 personnel?
Posted By: Topper Re: Banding - 22/06/09 2:58 PM
As far as i believe, the B2's will be carrying out decontam, delivery/collection and assisting the B5 tech, maybe EST.
The current B5 MEL staff are not qualified techs which is why they would be replaced with 2's if they left.
Our library, which opened in 1998, has always been just that, the staff book general ward devices in/out, deliver and collect from wards, clean the equipment and c/o very basic maintenance i.e. changing plug fuses, EST, changing batteries etc. The PPM and repairs are traditionally the responsibility of our General EBME Section although i (ITU Tech) do their syringe drivers.
Topper
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 22/06/09 3:05 PM

Now I'm really confused ... I had imagined Band 5 to be higher (that is, higher skilled, paid more etc.) than Band 2.

So who (what) are these Band 5 MEL's that you're talking about, if not "qualified techs"? smile
Posted By: Topper Re: Banding - 23/06/09 8:31 AM
You have misinterpreted the sentence. There is no need for these "Librarians" to be qualified which is why the posts have been deemed to merit B2 in the "current cost saving climate".
The two current staff were ATO then SATO then pursued an upgrade to MTO2 then this translated to B5 in their eyes. They have been very lucky to get B5 without being "skilled" but still they moan.
Topper
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 23/06/09 10:00 AM

No Topper, I didn't misinterpret what you said. The point I was trying to eek out was (to put it plainly):-

How come we are paying people at Band 5 for doing Band 2 work?

And, why aren't they being moved into a Band 5 job (or demoted to Band 2) today?

If they are not "qualified techs" ... what are they? Ex-nurses or some such thing? I don't understand terms like ATO, SATO. What's that? An Assistant Technical Officer, or something like that? A clerk, in other words (in plain English, that is).

It all sounds like a dog's breakfast to me. Yes, especially in the "current cost saving climate" (that is, when hundreds are losing salaried positions almost every day), I reckon it's about time all this AfC [censored] was sorted out, once and for all!

Meanwhile, I notice that people are still re-writing their Job Descriptions, supposedly in an attempt to gouge even more out of us tax-payers! frown
Posted By: Lurkio Re: Banding - 23/06/09 1:11 PM
The whole point of AFC was to get the pay for the job you do. It hasn't always been as succesful as people hoped. So why not attempt to get what you deserve. Some people may "talk the talk" (any ideas?) but can't "walk the walk". Today we need graduate qualifications just to get a start in any career, we're no different. Gone are the days of a 4 week Blacksmith course and taking a rifle to bits in 2 minutes, things have changed, the sun has come up and gone down many times since some of us trained.

JoLee: Go for what you deserve, if you can put your case across strongly enough and people listen then good luck
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 23/06/09 2:10 PM

If it took you that long to strip the rifle, you would have been RTU'd within the hour!

(are you speaking from experience, I wonder?)

All that you say is true ... but that doesn't make it right!

In my (long) experience of walking, talking ... and er, working, I have found that what a person likes to believe they are "worth", and what use they actually are, are often quite a distance apart.

If you (or anyone else) really wants to establish your true value to the world (not to mention mankind in general), then have what it takes to step outside the cozy little world of the NHS, and test (prove) yourself in the Dark Side! There's no salary, pay banding, pay rises, tax-payers' handouts, sick leave, free courses ... etc., etc. for me, Mate.

And never mind "walking the walk" ... can you still hack the run? smile
Posted By: Lurkio Re: Banding - 23/06/09 2:33 PM
Quote:
If you (or anyone else) really wants to establish your true value to the world (not to mention mankind in general), then have what it takes to step outside the cozy little world of the NHS, and test (prove) yourself in the Dark Side! There's no salary, pay banding, pay rises, tax-payers' handouts, sick leave, free courses


Why would anyone in their right mind do this?
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 23/06/09 2:44 PM

Yes ... you've hit the nail on the head, whether by accident or design. Although I noticed that you've skirted around my question(s).

Let's just say that different people have different mind-sets. What is important in the minds of some (eg, the common herd) may not appeal much to others. For instance, for some of us, (what have become) old fashioned values are still held in high regard.

There's really no need for me to elaborate. I assume that people here are generally aware of current affairs in our (once great) country. Oh yes, Great Britain ... a great past that is. Pity about the present, though. And as for the future ... "Third World" just about sums it up, as far as I can tell.

When you think about it (if, indeed you do), it's really just a matter of standards (or, lack of).

Anyone care to disagree? frown
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 23/06/09 2:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Lurkio
The whole point of AFC was to get the pay for the job you do.


My understanding was that the point of AFC was to have national standard salary bandings for jobs, eg A senior bio-med technician in Edinburgh would be paid the same as a senior bio-med technician in Swindon. However, I have changed jobs and location a fair few times since it began and it seems that eveyone got something different.
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 24/06/09 4:53 AM
Just a quick question, having never worked for the NHS (really happy about that) do the seperate bandings ie 2,3,4 etc. have stages within them whereby one is promoted (extra money) until, as the Americans would say 'you are red-lined' then you cross to the next band and would that be based on experience, qualifications or both. Personally I dont believe in banding of any type pay people what they are worth.
Posted By: KM Re: Banding - 24/06/09 6:51 AM
Yup,
there is a foundation gateway at 12 months and a 2nd gateway about 3 increments from the job of the scale. You have to proove you are worthy to go through. But you cant be pinallised if your management held you back from completing actions to go through the gateway.
Great fun.
Posted By: JoLee Re: Banding - 24/06/09 7:41 AM
Thanks Lurkio for the encouragment. My initial question was a broad one about banding. Certainly to my knowledge, within the NHS, many departments are dual run by EBME. Myself and my colleague are an exception to the rule in being nurses. It was a condition of the post, as it was deemed that a clinical outlook would benefit the service and its development. The qualifications behind our nursing experience have helped us to offer input into many aspects of the service. I dont feel that being castigated for pursuing qualifications is productive, though I do agree " each to their own" in our own personal journey to a career choice. ( Personally I trained later in life and of necessity as my then husband was critically ill with cancer, and so with that and a toddler in tow I chose to retrain from librarian to a nurse in the hope that I would get a job at a level that allowed me to support us all).I was interested in who runs equipment libraries within the NHS, and if so, what is their banding within the confines of AFC. Our engineers are applying for rebanding, and so we have been advised to do likewise given our role and experience thus far.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 24/06/09 9:14 AM
Originally Posted By: JoLee
Certainly to my knowledge, within the NHS, many departments are dual run by EBME.

We had better remind everyone tuning in that we are talking about Equipment Libraries (the shared equipment store and distribution thereof) here.

Originally Posted By: JoLee
Myself and my colleague are an exception to the rule in being nurses.

No so, in actual fact. I know of quite a few Equipment Libraries where ex-nurses dominate! smile

And, lastly (I hope) no-one was "being castigated for pursuing qualifications". The point being made is that enhanced education (or whatever) does not (and, indeed, should not) automatically mean an increase in remuneration. In other words:- "same job, same pay"!

And (finally), when people apply for re-banding, do they also run the risk of being down-graded? Perhaps it would be much fairer for all concerned (including, I might add, the tax-payer) if everyone was re-banded each year. Just about the time of the annual assessment should do it (I presume there is an annual assessment)!
Posted By: JoLee Re: Banding - 24/06/09 9:57 AM
As my post is in the Equipment Libraries thread I omitted clarification- soz!

Yes there are annual appraisal and people step up through gateways at certain junctures.

However if a new broom arrives and thinks that the staff in post are unfairly banded in comparison with their contemporaries within the NHS - then they can apply for rebanding ie engineers.

If there are nurses running equipment libraries then I would love to hear from them, as we do not fit easily into NHS job profiles and thus it is hard to do a comparison between JD's!
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 24/06/09 10:17 AM
Originally Posted By: JoLee
As my post is in the Equipment Libraries thread I omitted clarification- soz!

Yes, you're right. But I know that many "users" don't open their eyes too widely!

Originally Posted By: JoLee
If there are nurses running equipment libraries then I would love to hear from them ...

The ones I have in mind (and one individual in particular) is far too busy rushing about the hospital (causing mayhem in general, and hounding the biomeds in particular) to do anything constructive like contributing to debates on internet forums! Thinking about it, I doubt that she even allows herself to turn the computer on (she won't have been on the course, you understand).

But gateways? I'm having great difficulty in restraining myself from making "farmyard" comments here! smile
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 24/06/09 1:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Cyberdog
My understanding was that the point of AFC was to have national standard salary bandings for jobs, eg A senior bio-med technician in Edinburgh would be paid the same as a senior bio-med technician in Swindon. However, I have changed jobs and location a fair few times since it began and it seems that eveyone got something different.


I believe my point has been emphasised by the Liecester job that has been posted today. Minimum 3 years experience? Should be a Band 6 surely?
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 24/06/09 1:43 PM

Why? How many Brownie Points do you get for 35 years experience, then? whistle
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 24/06/09 2:10 PM
Band 7 or possibly 8a Geoff. Unless you have a PhD, then you'll will probably be able to get on 8b or c, effectively a consultant.
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 24/06/09 2:14 PM
In case you were wondering
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 24/06/09 2:22 PM

Unless I can get Band 57 then I won't be applying! smile
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 24/06/09 2:49 PM
assuming there was a band 57, your salary would blow the nhs trust's budget in a year or less.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 24/06/09 4:22 PM

Considering that it seems we're paying between £ 21 to 27 k a year for people to collect and deliver medical equipment around a hospital, that sounds to me like the tax-payers would be getting their money's worth at long last! smile
Posted By: Roger Re: Banding - 25/06/09 3:11 PM
Are we performing public service?

There is a need to balance between being professional for delivering the needed service and how much you are rewarded for doing this. Money is not always the motivating factor I think.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 25/06/09 3:41 PM

Have you any experience of the attitudes that prevail in Modern Britain, Roger?

No? Ah, I thought not. frown
Posted By: Paul Allum Re: Banding - 25/06/09 4:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Cyberdog

I believe my point has been emphasised by the Liecester job that has been posted today. Minimum 3 years experience? Should be a Band 6 surely?


The Leicester job description should equate to at MOST a band 4 it is actually quite well written but the person spec still uses "3 years experience" without qualifying it and the basic education requirement is a B-tec - good enough for background theory but just about worthless on it's own for AFC matching purposes.
"3 years experience" is meaningless unless you expand on what the person is supposed to have learnt in that time, and I'm sure we all know people that can pick up skills in a fraction of the normal time, (as well as those that couldn't learn if they had 1 to 1 training till they retired), which is why age discrimination legislation frowns on using this type of time serving requirement in job descriptions.

I am surprised that JD made it through job matching panels; although it does have "revised" in the title so it's possible management have made some daft changes and not submitted the revised JD for rematching

PS B-tec equates to level 3 in the knowledge and skills AFC factor [Although a matching panel would be generous and say the skills required raise the B-tec up the scale by a point.]and there is a rule of thumb that the knowledge and skills factor will equal the band level of the post (plus or minus one level at most)

Apologies for all the bracket use but that's how I think smile
Posted By: JoLee Re: Banding - 25/06/09 6:50 PM
we're paying between £ 21 to 27 k a year for people to collect and deliver medical equipment around a hospital, boggle

Where, where? tell me cos hell they are better paid than us lot, and we also deliver medical equipment training as well managing a busy medical equipment library, its team and all joys therein! shocked

Wonder if there are any posts in New Zealand?! cool
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 25/06/09 9:15 PM
Band 57 isn't that Hienz? Band 31 Baskin Robbins!
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 25/06/09 9:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Topper
Bandings here are as follows:- Medical Equipment Library (MEL) 2x staff on B5.
Posted By: JohnBhoy Re: Banding - 25/06/09 10:23 PM
I have not seen the job in Leicester advertised personally, but who is recruiting?
Is it the NHS or is it Asteral. They provide MES so could be why it is quite well written...
Posted By: Roger Re: Banding - 26/06/09 12:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Geoff Hannis

Have you any experience of the attitudes that prevail in Modern Britain, Roger?

No? Ah, I thought not. frown

Not really.

The topic here is re-banding and it refers to getting a senior job grade as well. Though it may be seniority in position but it does not solve the problem at hand of having to double up to do more. The grumbling will never stopped. Likewise, more work at hand will still exist.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 26/06/09 8:48 AM

This thread was opened by a nurse on Band 5 who manages an Equipment Library. At the link provided by Cyberdog, we find that (the elastic) Band 5 stretches from £ 20,710 to £ 26,839. Such are the facts.

Personally, I would be content with half of the median* of that spread. frown

* Median : those without a university degree may need to look that up!
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 26/06/09 11:19 AM
Can't get a band 5 with a university degree, you would have to hide that in order to apply
Posted By: Roger Re: Banding - 26/06/09 4:35 PM
Is the job market there rather bad now?
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 26/06/09 7:24 PM
From the ads posted on this site it seems that there are job openings, depends what you want from a job, Geoff likes the dark side, me I like the sunshine and no banding (although out here it is all responsibility and no authority)
Posted By: Cyberdog Re: Banding - 29/06/09 1:17 PM
No the job market over here looks fine from where im standing. That is, were I looking for another job.
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 29/06/09 1:18 PM

As odd as it may sound to the untutored ear ... the sun also shines on the Dark Side (well, sometimes, at least)! smile

Neil is right, though, Cyber there are still jobs listed at the side-bar, bottom-right of where you're now looking. The Great NHS Machine grinds on, regardless of (oblivious to?) what goes on outside in the real world!
Posted By: JoLee Re: Banding - 29/06/09 5:02 PM
Can't get a band 5 with a university degree, you would have to hide that in order to apply

What!!??? at the risk of Geoff starting up again - the gods preserve us - but I beg to differ - I got a Band 5 job and I have 2 honours degrees - did I have to hide them? Nope - they couldnt care less!
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 29/06/09 5:44 PM

Hey! Don't get me started! wink

Originally Posted By: Neil Porter
Can't get a band 5 with a university degree, you would have to hide that in order to apply


Originally Posted By: JoLee
I got a Band 5 job and I have 2 honours degrees - did I have to hide them? Nope - they couldnt care less!

Yes. But two Honours Degrees in what subject(s), I wonder?

And anyway, I thought we were all agreed ... it's the post (job), not the person, that gets banded! smile
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 30/06/09 4:41 AM
With 2 honour gegrees I thought they might have offered you something higher, but as Geoff mentioned it is the post that is banded and the person who is graded. (think about it?)
Posted By: RoJo Re: Banding - 30/06/09 12:54 PM
If I had a pound for every time someone said "remember it is the post not the peson being banded". I ould be typing this from a sunny beach not a hot sweaty office.
Robert
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 30/06/09 1:15 PM

Remember now, Robert ... it's the post, not the person, that's being banded! smile
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 30/06/09 4:26 PM
I am on a sunny beach, and I ain't banded
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 30/06/09 9:58 PM

Sweaty (and smelly) though. smile
Posted By: Neil Porter Re: Banding - 01/07/09 4:58 AM
Some what sweaty 42 degrees C, Smelly no! lots of talc and deoderant
Posted By: Huw Re: Banding - 01/07/09 6:09 AM
back on topic please...
Posted By: Geoff Hannis Re: Banding - 01/07/09 6:21 PM

Surely this thread has been well and truly squared away, Huw? Along the lines of:- "it's the post, not the person, that gets banded"! smile

Originally Posted By: Geoff Hannis
Sweaty (and smelly) though.

Actually, Neil ... it was the beach I was thinking of (not the er, person). Unless, that is, the "prevailing breeze" has shifted somewhat since the last time I was out in Jeddah!
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