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#14677 21/12/04 6:32 PM
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In our future post-registation, utopian world we will all be taught the answer to 'simple' problems like this. Why not wait a while and start this topic again after 2008.

Surely this is a question we should be asking our degree qualified colleagues as they must have covered it in their course!

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Mozzzzza

#14678 02/03/05 3:26 PM
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Sorry to bring this up again, but has anybody any knowledge of the long awaited Goverment report into blood pressure monitors. Not so much as how it's taken, but which monitors actually do the job properly as opposed to claims of being A/A rated?
A lot of the monitors I've come across are fine on a simulator or perfect patient, but not so good in actual practice.
Graham

#14679 03/03/05 10:22 AM
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Hi Graham

If you go to the MHRA link on this site and type blood presssure in the search feild you will find details of this commitee.
Unfortunately my computer does not open pdf files so I can't read the content, but the list of minutes you can download gives March 2004 as the latest minutes available. That does not look to good, either the comittee has reached its conclusions or it has ground to a halt, hope it's the former.
Hope this helps, I will go to the library later today and download from there.


Steve

#14680 03/03/05 12:24 PM
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The work of this group may just be targeting stand-alone BP monitors and not actually be of significant use to the likes of us when it comes to evaluation and selection of Vital Signs Monitoring that incorporates NIBP capability. If the study involves the BHS then this is likely to be the case in my opinion. I would find out before you read too much into it but previous posts imply that individuals are particularly interested in automated NIBP devices used in VSM.

Most of the BHS evaluations have concerned devices that are capable of BP measurements only and seem to be predominantly targeted by home users, clinics and GP surgeries. Thus any findings may not be of much value to us, in the acute healthcare setting, especially if multi-parameter vital signs monitors with NIBP used for vigilance or peri-operative monitoring, for example, are not included in the study.

#14681 04/03/05 8:41 AM
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Thanks to you both for you thoughts on this matter.
Steve quite rightly directed me to the website, but as we have now both discovered, nothing has been posted since March 2004. Grateful for that Steve. We will just have to hope that something is forthcoming sooner rather than later.
To clarify for Mr Ling, I was not aiming this at the Dinamap type of monitor which we all have lots of experience with, but the type you can buy for £50 - £100 that claim to be A/A rated and are fine on a simulator, are accurate but are not so good on real patients.
Thanks
Graham

#14682 04/03/05 10:59 AM
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Thanks for that Grahame. Just one thing out of interest and further to your original comments:

Quote:
Not so much as how it's taken, but which monitors actually do the job properly as opposed to claims of being A/A rated?
A lot of the monitors I've come across are fine on a simulator or perfect patient, but not so good in actual practice.
I assume you're not particularly interested in aneroid sphygmomanometers then, considering that the accuracy of the reading is down to technique (as long as the basic calibration meets specifications). Plus I've not seen simulators that dynamically (you did mention simulator?) test these (though I use leak-test and monometer function on our simulator to do static cal).

Possibly your interests lie with the semi-automatic types (that need to be manually inflated and initiated) and those automatic ones that are just dirt-cheap (that cycle at pre-determined intervals).

Just thought I'd mention that there is a BS standard for safety and essential performance of automatic cycling of NIBP monitors (where determinations are initiated automatically by the device); IEC 60601-2-30:2000. My approach would be to avoid any auto-cycling devices that don't purport to meet this standard in their literature. You get what you pay for really - just a thought.

This aside, I would have thought that the following standards are relevant and that manufacturers of medical equipment would be obliged to meet certain requirements of them. They might give some clues to testing anyhow.

BS 1060-1:1996 Specification for non-invasive sphygmomanometers. General requirements

BS 1060-2:1996 Specification for non-invasive sphygmomanometers. Supplementary requirements for mechanical sphygmomanometers

BS 1060-3:1997 Specification for non-invasive sphygmomanometers. Supplementary requirements for electro-mechanical blood pressure measuring systems

BS 1060-4:2004 Specification for non-invasive sphygmomanometers. Test procedures to determine the overall system accuracy of automated non-invasive sphygmomanometers

BS EN ISO 14155-1:2003 Clinical investigation of medical devices for human subjects. General requirements

BS EN ISO 14155-2:2003 Clinical investigation of medical devices for human subjects. Clinical investigation plans

In order to make a truly objective comparison of the accuracy of any blood pressure measurement devices it's probably necessary to get right back to the clincal validation stage. Otherwise try motion artefact and arrythmia simulations using the NIBP similator to see which devices are most tolerant and give readings that are reproducible and that you're happy with.

Absolute accuracy of these devices is difficult because the dynamic measurement is affected by lots of factors i.e. it is less reproducible than the static accuracy measurement. Since clincal testing is done under reproduceable conditions on test-subjects I guess that "real-world" scenarios are not taken into account (but there are so many where do you start?). Accuracy os also relative to a "gold standard" method, correlation to IBP or simultaneous manual measurements by experienced practitioners.

Hence assessment of measurement accuracy becomes more of a statistical process just to obtain more reproducible figures or, if you don't wish to go down that route, quite subjective in the real world i.e. does one device produce results that "look better" than other devices using NIBP simulator "X" or are the users "happier" with the readings on real-world patients? I wonder if those cheap units have been clinically validated? I assume so.

#14683 04/03/05 11:00 AM
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#14684 04/03/05 1:39 PM
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Hello,

Does anybody know of a decent monitor that has a minimum of 1 minute of a buffer memory for ECG? If an artefact/alarm happens it will print the minute and not a few seconds memory that some monitors have.

Thanks

#14685 04/03/05 5:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mullingar:
Hello,

Does anybody know of a decent monitor that has a minimum of 1 minute of a buffer memory for ECG? If an artefact/alarm happens it will print the minute and not a few seconds memory that some monitors have.

Thanks
Are you thinking of a patient bedside, portable or an event recorder?. For bedside / portable arythmias are logged. Putting in to context on such a monitor depends on the user setup. The only real way of achieving in context ecg recall would be an event recorder such as Reynolds medical units (can't remember the model name, but not the lifecard CF)


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#14686 07/03/05 1:21 PM
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Hello,

Its for a stand-alone bedside monitor, and yes they want an event recorder, either automatic or manual, that will print at least a minute of ECG prior to the event.

Does anyone know if this monitor exist?

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