EBME Forums Forums Management Professional Issues Agenda For Change AFC job offer

PhilC,

Exactly the points I've been making all along - for about 12 months in fact if you read previous threads.

Just coincidence with what I was saying earlier but notice how HNC has been introduced as the entry-level qualification in the new national profiles posted yesterday.

Richard
Sorry I hav'nt read all you previous threads,
but a lot out there just do not know how the system works or how to work it to there advantage.

Philc,

Our JD states "HNC/HND electrical or electronic engineering or equivalent + 2 years experience".

The departmental requirement when applying for this job, is a HNC. I have it on an internal advertisement for this post, on which, this is stated. For team leaders its the same. I'm unsure if departmental management have a degree.

I've heard of CAJE. I understand it's to stop migration of staff to the better paid but similar positions in different trusts

I'm also confused, a highly specialised physiological measurement practitioner/clinical physiologist gets a level 7 for factor 2. The JD for this post states, in factor 2:
"Scientific knowledge acquired through formal training to clinical physiology degree or equivalent level (eg HNC + Specialised courses) plus knowledge of specialist and advanced procedures acquired through accredited courses or equivalent experience to masters equivalent level".

So a HNC and specialised courses is worth an extra 76 points in their case, why not in our's?

Philc.

You are right! we really didn't have a clue. In retrospect I feel we were fast tracked to get this done. Apparently this trust is way ahead of others in terms of AFC implementation. Hopefully someone will learn from our inexperience.

Medjcuh,

I don't think anybody really knows what's going-on; there's no transparency or guidance from the SHAs on consistent implementation of AfC as far as I'm aware. Plus significant changes in the national profiles indicate to me that the goalposts are being altered left right and centre. Even though I'm certain there will be MTO job-roles that require protection, via R&R, I don't think anyone really knows how it's to be applied (under the jurisdiction of the SHA) in the area where I work. I've been informed by HR that the way it's being interpreted is that potentially R&R could give less protection to salary and pension, than standard protection, if it's applied since it's at the local discretion/down to local circumstances. At least my employer is committed to providing "normal protection" of salary and pension until 2010/11. It is a bit of a lottery from what I hear. What compunds the problem is that depending upon local support from managers individuals JDs can be talked-up/down as it suits. No wonder CAJEs are required - I wonder who thinks all this up? They certainly didn't consider the implications at the local level in my opinion. All the shannanigins needs to be taken into account considering those that have already been compromised by getting in their JDs early.

bill_mcg

Dead right, 2 and 12 define which band will be matched to, with all points totalling between 396 and 465.

Richard

You are right and you are wrong. We do use software it's called CAJE(Computer Aided Job Evaluation)but we only use it to record the factor levels determined by the matching panel.
Regarding transparency, I can't talk for other trusts but here in Carlisle all is completely transparent.
The panel consists of 4 members, 2 staff ie. union nominated, and 2 management ie, any other odd sod.(I am an MTO3 with no management responsibilities)Westart in the morning being given 3 or 4 JDs to match.We have no instructions from the trust as to what they expect/want.After reading te JDs and person specs we have a rough idea as to which bands to start looking at,I say bands because we try not to fix on only one at this stage.We now compile a list of questions to ask to clarify/expand on the JD and person spec. Every rep and manager come for an informal chat. Invariably we get more information from this than from anything else. Now comes matching time, starting with 2 and 12 we determine which band to match to, we then asign levels to the remaining 14 factors. This is then entered onto CAJE, (in the early days we used a paper template and added up the scores ourselves).CAJE then scores the levels adds them up and anounces its result (our result actually). This can be 1 of 3 things, job match, band match or no match.Job match is when the score is within the job profile scores, band match is when the score is within the band scores an no match is when the score is outside the band scores, or we have more than 5 variances.
Variances:- Each factor has a level, if we give a different level due to the persons actual job this then becomes a variance, we can vary + or - one level and have a maximum of 5.
Following our matching the results are looked at by our local consistency panel (again 2 staff 2 management drawn from the pool of matchers, but the same people each time, (for consistency would you believe)If they agree with us the result is then sent to the SHA,and thence to ? (London I think),eventually the trust gets the OK and assimilation takes place.If they don't agree the panel is reconvened to consider their comments and either agree or not. This could lead to a new panel although I do not think this has happened yet.
I hope this has helped clarify things, if not given any comfort.

As I have suggested previously, on at least 3 occasions in this thread, no less, it is essential that factors 2 and 12 are pitched correctly in the JD to ensure that matching panels progress the job-matching process at the appropriate level. At Carlisle the process may be transparent (to individuals involved directly with the process of matching) but mere mortals elsewhere are wondering what's going on.

Thanks for confirming my concerns that matching hinges on qualifications and freedom to act - everybody consider that the national profiles changed yesterday - HNC is now entry-level Technician (previously ONC as HNC has never been mentioned this last year or so), HND + experience + short courses is qualified Technician level and B.Eng/PgC is pitched at specialist level.

This may have already been said - it's late and I've only skimmed over things - The person spec may give the requirements for a new MTO3, if you have stars then there is good grounds for appeal as they must relate to something!!! (if not, when assimilated to Band 5 managers will have to find others to do those "specialist" functions )

Andy

Dicky, another question. How is your actual pay scale point on whatever band you eventually find yourself on determined ? Is it just the nearest point to your present salary ? It's never been made too clear to anyone.