EBME Forums Forums Management Professional Issues Agenda For Change Disclosing AFC results

I have seen "or equivalent experience with a lower qualification". i.e. you do not need the actaual bit of paper just the knowledge to be of a similar level. AfC profiles do not actually stipulate a qualification, just education and experience up to a standard. And a way of describing the standard is by mentioning a recognised qualification such as a degree.
Robert

All of our JD's include the phrase, "or equivalent experience". Unfortunately there seems to be huge inconsistencies with post matching across the same Trust's - never mind between neighbouring hospitals.

On the subject of qualifications - I obtained a degree qualification because I felt quite vulnerable and concerned that it may be extremely difficult to secure a similar post to my own, should I need or choose to, without higher qualifications.

However, we have recruited 3 technicians in the last few years. In each case we rejected candidates with degrees in favour of people with City and Guilds papers, and loads of experience - mainly in TV repair. Their fault finding skills are second to none, and they have turned out to be excellant technicians. I fear the new JD's will put this type of person off applying for future posts.

Cheers, Jeff.

Unfortunately the inconsistencies seem to be across the whole of the AfC process whither from disagreement on initial JD's of what is equivalent, right down to the matching panels.

As for qualifications I was once told that the higher the qualification the more you learn about the little until you reach Phd where you then know an extreme lot about extremely little! Then there's also the old adage that the first year of an Engineering degree is teaching A-Level students which end of the soldering iron to hold as not to burn themselves

If I had to recruit 3 technicians and got candidates with degree's I would personally be looking for BTEC OND/C plus experience to back up the HND or degree. From my experience most of these practical skills are learnt at this level, whereas on some City and guilds courses it's impossible to fail so I wouldn't consider them in the same standing as BTEC.

Some advice please.
Both my MTO2s have been banded Grade 4, neither were on the top of their scale. (One 5 years, the other 3). This effectively means that as the MTO 2 scale currently reaches approx £19.6k and the top of the current Grade 4 scale is approx £18.6k, they have had £1k cropped from their pay scale. They have not had the offical letters yet, but I really need some advice as good staff are hard to come by.

Graham,

Have you considered the R&R premimum. There is a post on this website that has discussed these issues. In a nutshell MTO's are elegible for R&R payment. The payment should be available to ensure that staff are not worse off as a result of assimilation. I'm not sure how this will affect staff who will be worse off in future years.

Bill... i think you have misunderstood what R&R is. Not every MTO is entitled to it.

As i understand the recuitment and retension premium; its for staff who have a role which there are better pay conditions in the private sector (eg a sparky or chippy)

As far as I am aware at this trust we do not qualify for R&R.

Graham - At this trust MTO 2's have been assimalated to band 5. Your guys need to appeal against this, and have your (or the managements) full support.

Bill and Paul, with due respect neither of you are fully correct. Firstly MTO's ARE entitled to R&R. Secondly R&R is a NATIONAL agreement between the NHS and Unions and is not decided at individual Trust Level. I suggest you look and the official guidance relating to your concerns in the following document: "Agenda for Change -Final Agreement (December 2004)" See page 18 under heading "Nationally agreed recruitment and Retention premia" Sect 4.14 (table 5). You can find this document on the DoH web site, just follow links for Agenda for Change. Hope this helps.

To be banded at band 4 I take it that they have matched to the "Medical Engineering Technician (Entry Level)" profile. The two key factors in reaching band 5 are (as normal) Knowledge training and experience, and Freedom to act, both of which would need to be one level higher.
The freedom to act factor relies on their work being managed rather than supervised which may be possible to appeal on depending on what the jd says.
The KTE factor however is a little more defined in that the band 4 profile requires a Btec/Onc and the band 5 an HND/BEng. Since a lot of jd's and person specs seriously undervalued the experience required for our line of work, this is most likely going to be the sticking point. It would be worth running through the JD with a magnifying glass to see if you can make a legitimate argument for Hnd level qualification from it. If this is not possible then the only option would be to rewrite the JD and resubmit, but this is likely to be treated as a regrade and would require funding to be identified to cover it.
Unfortunately even the band 5 generic healthcare science profile requires the same KTE and Freedom to Act so there is no sideways jump up

HTH Paul

Graham have they been to JAQ. If not the best advice I got was to do it and make sure you get someone who knows what they are doing (pref has sat on panels) to read the JAQ before you present it that way you can iron out all queries between yourselves.
Our whole department went to JAQ and we came out favourably all a grade higher. But I dont think we could have done it without the help we got.

i am really graeful for all you comments ans advice.
One technician has an HNC in electronics and 5 years medical experience and at least 20 years industrial experience.
The other has an HND in electronics and an HNC in computer studies and 3 years medical and previous 17 years industrial experience.
Freedom to act scored 12 points and was matched to level 2.
Knowledge, Training & Experience was matched to level 4, 88 points.
Needless to say, we will be planning for a review
thanks again
Graham