Home Articles Downloads Forum Products Services Seminar Contact
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 5 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 13
Re: RFID Tracking
Geoff Hannis #33645 16/09/08 3:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
DAS Offline
Mentor
Offline
Mentor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
No passive. It's the transmitter/Receiver that's the problem as it is powering the tag it is throwing out up to 4 watts. Can I upload a copy?


Never under-estimate the predictability of stupidity
Re: RFID Tracking
DAS #33647 16/09/08 3:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,383
Likes: 7
Huw Offline
Hero
Offline
Hero
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,383
Likes: 7
You can now smile
Switch to the 'Full Reply Screen' and click on the 'File Manager'.

Re: RFID Tracking
Huw #33650 16/09/08 3:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
DAS Offline
Mentor
Offline
Mentor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
Get this message

"We encountered a problem. The reason reported was

Files can be no larger than bytes."

File size is 319Kb


Never under-estimate the predictability of stupidity
Re: RFID Tracking
DAS #33653 16/09/08 4:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,383
Likes: 7
Huw Offline
Hero
Offline
Hero
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,383
Likes: 7
Ooops, my bad!
I changed the forum permissions to allow attachments but didn't set a limit for the file size. Hence the crypic "larger than bytes" error. blush

Re: RFID Tracking
DAS #33655 16/09/08 5:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Dreamer
Offline
Dreamer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Hi Guys,

Apologies. I would have replied earlier but I have been on site today. I am also reading each reposnse so I may jump around a little.

Roger - As previously mentioned this type of technology (tracking across wi-fi) is very new in the UK, although RFID as a technology has been around for along time. It has taken the NHS years to even accept wireless technology in the Acute environment due to...

1.An assumption that it would interfere with certain types of medical equipement.
2.Initial installation costs were high
3.Justification for wlans was, and is still difficult.
4.Skill set within the NHS is almost none existant, this is purely down to IT departments not investing in staff training etc.
5.The Trust doesn't know why its wants a wlan, and as such the WLAN project will give the perception that it has failed. purely because the purpose of the design it was never really defined.

I have been in ALL of the above positions, and they are very difficult to overcome due to the lack of understanding at the right managment level.

If you look at locating an asset without a tracking solution, then consider the resource to do this.

scenario 1

1. EBME Tech Engineer looking for the asset in Ward A
2. Ward Manager get roped into looking for asset
3. Nursing staff get asked if they have seen the asset, then also start looking.
4. Consultant may have seen the asset in either ward B or ward C, and so the circle continues.

This scenario happens in EVERY hospital in the Country without fail

Hospital solution - Let throw more staff at the problem, and reduce spending on patient care.

Scenario 2

1. Ward A staff need Pump
2. EBME dont have a spare one as they are all "in use" (at this point we all clearly know they are not, they are being stored just in case")
3. Ward A calls Wards B and C, but they have no spare pumps
4. Ward A "identifies" and patient that is not so critical, and as such removes that pump and places it on more critical patient.

This causes a risk of cross contamination, and a risk to BOTH patients.

Again this scenario happens everywhere. I have been to a number of Trust who confirm that this happens.

The bottom line is as Tax payers throwing staff at looking for medical equipement is a severe waste of money, and is a short term fix to a long term problem. So you've found it one week, but lost it again the following week.

You want to be able to prove to the Senior management that you dont have enough equipement or resources. But how can you do that if you cannot show any usage of the equipment.

I am not saying that in all circumstances this type of technology is right. The need for it as a complete investment should be taken into account. Throwing one person into the EBME department doesn't help the IT Dept. locate and manage their kit, it doesn't help Porters find the Wheelchairs that they desperately need. Trusts for years have continually bought more un-needed kit becasue they have no information on use, and employ more staff to find it. but each year the trusts are in the same position. So Staff is clearly not the answer and it hasn't worked yet. So why not look at the potential of something different.

A Band 5 Medical Engineer is what around 20,000. To the Trust with on cost which include Pension, annual leave, desks etc it cost closer to 40,000 for ONE Department. now take into account all those members of staff looking for that asset as well. The Trust is now paying nurses, sisters and other Medically trained staff to look for assets and taking them away from Patients.

A location solution will release those staff to resume their original role.

I'm sure that you understand this, and I fully appreciate the issues you all face having worked in an Acute.

Now seeing and hearing the same statements coming from Hospitals around the country, the Trusts that are taking this up will at least have "reports" that we all know senior managers like, these will confirm why they need to go back to Central Government and ask for more money.

oh and Geoff, I am an Engineer and as much as I agree with the "who gives a damn what those Bean Counters think (...can they fix the kit)?" unfortunately they are also the people who will cut the budget if you cannot locate the kit and justify why you need more.

I am also just reading you link you sent me which I appreicate you doing. I have however just seen the dreaded PFI word. Been there, done it....didn't enjoy it frown

The life if a tag has just been mentioned by Roger. To get a tag to only last for 6-12 months is quite frankly poor configuration. After nearly 6 months of monitoring a site and the usage of assets and tags, based on a config we installed their tags will last for around 4 years. then the batteries are replaceable.

DAS mentioned about the Jama Paper. Although I cannot directly comment on their report, the technology I work with is purely Wi-fi based, and as such has no impact to us. We have made a statement to that affect.

Again guys I appreciate you giving me time, but please be gentle. I still have the mindset of an NHS person.

Re: RFID Tracking
Jason G #33668 16/09/08 8:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,198
Likes: 16
Super Hero
Offline
Super Hero
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,198
Likes: 16
Originally Posted By: Jason G
I still have the mindset of an NHS person.

... oh dear, that's torn it! smile

Scenario 1:-

Why is the EBME tech looking for the asset? Let's say it's for PM. He goes to the nurses station and announces what he wants. The ward staff either point him in the right direction, tell him that it's being used, go off and find it, or ask him to come back later. If it's feasible, the tech asks the staff to get the kit sent down to the workshop. OK, so he may have to call in again. If the worst comes to the worst, the biomed dept. sends a note (email) to the ward advising them that PM is due and requesting that the kit be made available. Bottom line is:- it's their equipment, so put the onus on them! What's the problem?

Scenario 2 (solution):- Equipment Library.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
Re: RFID Tracking
Jason G #33671 17/09/08 3:54 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 428
Sage
Offline
Sage
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 428
Hi Jason,

Good morning, its early in the morning but here we are at noon.

We all know there are many reasons to justify for buying a system like RFID but lets be realistic about it. It is still facts and figures like ROI, etc and have you gotten a reference site where prospective buyers can consult directly with their counterpart (hear directly from the horses' mouth - its never more convincing than that).

Geoff has the point - making the onus on the user department rather than searching endlessly and taking the blame for not having the kit serviced.

Equipment library - any thumbup.

Cheers!

Last edited by Roger; 17/09/08 3:55 AM.

Make the impossible POSSIBLE. I know we all can and it is the wisdom to distinguish one from the other.

My blog: http://biomedicalengineeringconsultancy.blogspot.sg/

Re: RFID Tracking
Roger #33678 17/09/08 8:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
DAS Offline
Mentor
Offline
Mentor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 188
Here's the Jama paper. Easy enough read. I'm with Geoff on the various scenarios though.

Attached Files
radio frequency identification devices.pdf (318.29 KB, 3475 downloads)
Jama paper

Never under-estimate the predictability of stupidity
Re: RFID Tracking
DAS #33684 17/09/08 9:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Dreamer
Offline
Dreamer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Good Morning Guys.

thanks for the responses.

Its really difficult to get the NHS blood out of the vains, and you never really escape, your just given the impression that you make these decissions to move on smile

Scenario 1:-

Easier said than done. Not one Hospital acutally works the way you suggest. At the end of the day the equipment belongs to the Trust, and not to the Ward/Department, and the job of locating will ALWAYS fall under the EBME dept.

Sending emails to Nurses has never worked as they just dont get the time to address those emails, even if it is for PM.

The onus will always be for EBME in that respect, and who do you think is legally responsible, and will end up in court should an asset not get PM at the right time, and something happens......EBME dept, their manager, their director and Chief Exec. And this DOES happen.

Scenario 2:-

Equipment Library. I totally agree. Happy times. All you need to do is justify the equipement library set up, and how to manage it. What tools are you going to use, how will it take away nurses wasting their time on medical equipment, and as you know you cant employ more staff to manage to library.

Doesn't stop the kit from going missing though. Ward A gets it from library/pool. then keeps it, Ward B does the same, Ward C cant get one. So ward C goes to Ward B and takes theirs in the middle of the night becasue they are desperate, tell Ward B night staff who dont log it down becasue they are short short staffed and busy. But this asset needs PM. You got to get it, no one can locate it, my orignal Scenario 1 takes place, something bad happens, you all end up in court. not so happy times

Also to add, you still have NO usage figures, just now you have kit that is not in the Library where you want it. However if you can prove that the asset is just sat in a ward not being used, then not only can you get it for another ward to use, but you start to have justification for more, or less of that asset and mnore of another. This is better cost management, better resource management, better asset management, and in all honesty will save money.

Roger made what I consider to be a valid point, and yes worldwide we have reference sites, ROI studies, there are even independant studies available which show the pro's and cons, however they all prove the same thing. It is effective to get a solution like this, but it needs to be planned and thought through properly before moving forward. In other words, dont get it because the lights flash and you can see a dot moving on a map.( this is where I prove I am not a salesman...lol)

I had a conversation recently with a very senior Purchasing Manager in the NHS who looks at various solutions for the whole of the NHS, and he made a statement which is soooo true. The NHS operate like lemmings. Once one has taken the plung, the rest will follow, but it take an innovator in the appropriate size Trust for other Trusts of the same size to follow.

Obviously I cant put up reference site info here, and I wont do sales pitch stuff on this forum.

Finding An ROI In RTLS




Re: RFID Tracking
Jason G #33686 17/09/08 9:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,198
Likes: 16
Super Hero
Offline
Super Hero
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,198
Likes: 16
Scenario 1: I don't want to get into a big argument ... but you're dead wrong. And (on this forum at least), we are tired of hearing about (being threatened with) "Courts of Law".

Scenario 2: yes, equipment libraries are changing the way in which kit is managed in hospitals. But they need staff (and trolleys), not gizmo's. And if there's no money available for the former (which I doubt), what makes you think it will be available for the latter?

OK, so you're not a salesman ... then why are you trying to promote your stuff here? Most of us are already well aware of the pros and cons of asset tracking, I should imagine.

And lastly, why do you persist in taking the p*ss out of NHS staff? Even I know that putting down the (potential) customer is not the best selling strategy.

Meanwhile, do we really care if the odd piece of kit goes missing? John Sandham has just told us that they have too much of it anyway! smile


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
Page 5 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12 13

Moderated by  DaveC in Oz, RoJo 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
1 members (DaveC in Oz), 525 guests, and 21 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
RUH Bath, Luciano ACI, hectorja, by3xxx, Nguyen Trinh
9743 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums25
Topics10,642
Posts71,923
Members9,743
Most Online5,980
Jan 29th, 2020
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4