Hello everyone especially anaesthetic machine experts, as the crisis continues would you be able to share tips and information on the possibilities of using your anaesthetic machine to ventilate are and support a Covid-19 patient when no ventilators available and the option of using an anaesthetic machine as a last resort?

In short, using the diagram you have given, it won't work; it does not show the (anaesthetic) ventilator.

And anyway, why start tying up anaesthesia machines?

The last resort is, as always, the Ambu bag.

Other self-inflating manual resuscitation bags are available.

From the front line most hospitals have cut back or virtually stopped routine surgery.... so there are many anaesthetic machines not being utilised..... now you might understand where I am coming from old chap.

To be honest, no ... I don't understand.

What about emergency surgery?

But more importantly, most (if not all) anaesthetic (or "theatre") ventilators can be run without an anaesthesia machine. Gas supplies need to be consider (that is, be available) - just as they would with an anaesthesia machine - and generally an oxygen-air mixer would be needed. However, as the type (name) implies, anaesthetic (or "theatre") ventilators are generally not suited to use in an ITU situation.

As already mentioned, an anaesthesia machine by itself (without a ventilator) cannot ventilate a patient ... unless you're prepared to have someone sitting there squeezing a rebreathing bag.

We are talking about modern day anaesthetics machines with all the bells and whistles not the good old boyles....

Hi, see attached link for GE kit.
https://www.gehealthcare.com/-/jssmedia/3c655c83bd6b427e9824994c12be0da5.pdf?la=en-us

Basically avoid low-flows, keep the fresh gas to around 4-5 lpm to avoid too much moisture, change soda lime regularly, remove vaporisers and flush system of all agent. May need to adjust alarm limits etc.

Morning all,

Thanks for sharing SMB, would anyone have similar information for the Drager anaesthetic machine?

Check your inbox.

So using an anaesthetic machine is an option but the key is to liaise with the relevant manufacturer of the device you are intending to use.

There is also a possibility of using a single ventilator on two patients....anyone can share any experience of this option?

I would stay away from the idea of placing two patients on a ventilator. It works with test lungs but humans react very differently to test lungs. I would let the clinicians decide that move and not even suggest to them beforehand.

In the current situation and shortage of ventilator wonder if the existing ventilator Manufacturers are looking at the possibilities of this concept.

Its not advisable as no two patients are the same, therefor it would be a dangerous scenario that manufacturers would not want to be associated with. There is nothing stopping a manufacturer from designing it for the future though, with smarter devices come smarter practices.
I have been reading and hearing that some staff are modifying the anaesthetic machines to drive on air to prevent decreasing O2 supplies, that's worth considering a discussion with your reps.

The American Society of Anaesthesiologists have published guidance on this here:

https://www.asahq.org/in-the-spotli...sing-anesthesia-machines-for-ventilators

Early this morning watching Sky news here in Italy, sipping on my cappuccino, there was a reportage from a Spanish hospital in Barcelona, I noticed that many a GE Advance/Aespire machines were being used to ventilate Covid patients, albeit in ORs converted to ICUs.

You'll find nicer pictures on ANSA, Malcolm. You could also try El País.

There's no need to fall for any "fake news" these days, as many alternative sources are available (if you have the time - and at the moment, surely most people do).

There is an opportunity there for global perspective, for those who value it. For instance, we don't hear much about the 500 bed temporary hospital built in very short order just outside Moscow (although, to be fair, we did hear about the one built in Wuhan in just ten days).

There are so many questions; like (for example):- why does each country seemingly count "Covid-19 related" deaths differently?

There has been much talk in the UK about the "herd" (farming talk, really, as in "herd immunity"); but it was only recently that I realised that when people mentioned "the herd", they were really talking about the bovine MSM reporters who turn out (hoping to score points) at the daily briefings from the seat of power.

Meanwhile, here is a new APSF document which touches on recent threads (re: anaesthesia machines, Covid-19 etc.).

It was good to see a medical device company in Galway has designed a new system to enable two patients to be treated safely from one ventilator.....

Just in case it useful to anyone, the video is Dr. Stephen Sheppherd (Consultant, Intensive Care and Anaesthetics, St. Bartholomew's Hospital London).

Describes using an anaesthetic machine (with ventilator) an an 'ICU ventilator'. It is a Penlon Prima 465 but principles would surely apply to many brands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRgDCQlHgCU&feature=youtu.be



Anaesthesia ventilators have been installed in large numbers at NHS Nightingale London & London region hospitals to ventilate COVID-19 patients.

https://www.penlon.com/Blog/April-2020/Penlon-Anaesthetic-Machines-in-NHS-Nightingale-Hos

Hi Friends

Here is some information that I found at the GE website about the topic

https://www.gehealthcare.com/-/jssmedia/3c655c83bd6b427e9824994c12be0da5.pdf?la=en-us

I hope this could help

Keep healthy

Best regards

Hello umish,

This is easily done and I have used anaesthesia machines as ICU ventilators.

Be sure to:
1. Use a new disposable circuit
2. Take off any agent vaporizers
3. Place the CO2 absorber in the 'Off Line' position
4. Use a HME
5. A FGF of 6-8 lpm is adequate for average adults
https://healthprofessions.udmercy.edu/academics/na/agm/09.htm

Regards, Michel.