EBME Forums Forums Management Professional Issues Agenda For Change The new national agreed profiles are out!!

Are you advocating that we should not employ Engineering graduates in this job role Ian?

I'm sure that it has been said before but, the whole point about upgrading qualifications is for the future. Many people are in general agreement that they are not really necessary. However, given that the aim is for 50% of school leavers to get degrees, shouldn't we be aiming to be part of that.

We have enough trouble getting recognition as it is, without further hampering our position by saying that we should only look to recruiting from the lower 50%.

AfC and KSF won't really matter if the expectation isn't there. If we aim low, that is where we will end up.

Things change and move on. When I started out in the big wide world I did an apprenticeship and got a C&G. Who even considers C&G these days? Moving to the NHS, I subsequently did an HNC as this was what was recognised under the old MPT system. Is the move to degrees any different? I don't think so.

As for continually running down graduates, I am sure that there are as many 'horror stories' relating to people with ONC/HNC/HND.

Thanks Ian for your comments re Union officials!

Is it common elsewhere that a small cohort of Union reps are heavily involved in the Staff Side activities? I must stress the importance of Union representation and recommend that everyone becomes a union member; which might be needed for appeals, grievances, KSF, ...

The continuing problem with AFC factor 2 is when the person specification indicates educational requirements that reflect the current post holder; not what is required of someone to fill the post now (or as of 1st Oct 2004). This is an area where managers need guidance; simply requiring membership eligibilty of the VRCT should do this.

Andy

On the panels I have been on (about 2 a week since the beginning of March)one of the questions we ask of managers when they come with their staff is "If Fred or Jemima or whoever left today what would be the minimum qualification you would require of their replacement, and then how long would it be before their experience and knowledge was equivalent to Fred or Jemimas" The difference between the answer to this and the so called national job profiles is quite illuminating.

Perhaps this bigoted attitude to youngsters starting out on their chosen career is the reason why we have problems recruiting and retaining staff. How many newly degree-qualified individuals are being turning away from interviews because interviewers and technical assessors are carrying a king-size chip on their shoulder about paper qualifications? I certainly wouldn't have agreed to have individuals like that involved in AfC or KSF negotiations representing me or my Trades Union but unfortunately it seems they're letting anybody get involved, however radical their views, these days. You're a credit to your professional institution Ian (incidentally even the IIE requires a degree for membership these days) thanks for giving us the insight to how the NHS system really works.

R. J. Ling MIEE.

Hi Richard,

Why is everyone getting hung up on qualifications,do you remember Tom Howell from Hope Hospital. Tom in my humble opinion was the best medical physics technician ever to walk Gods green earth what he did not know about the discipline could have been written on the back of a postage stamp Tom's was qualified to C&G level.

I could not see Tom been banded at three ,anything less than seven for Tom would have been laughable.

Before people start getting hung up they should read the guidance notes (chapter 3 of the hand book in this chapter guidance is given on how to match job descriptions to the various factors)factor two does state that a post grad cert is reqd. for band six OR EQUIVALENT EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE GAINED FROM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND SHORT COURSES.

Know that I have got that of my chest I am going for a cup of tea and a chunky Kit Kat.

Hope you are keeping well ,how are things in sunny North Manchester.

Regards
John

Hi John,

Nice to hear from you - hope you and yours are keeping well.


It's disturbing to read the comments from an individual who I assume is a senior member of staff in NHS employment, in a position to recruit no doubt, expressing their biases and predjudices in such a manner.

Dear Mr Ling (or may I call you Richard?),

Clearly, my contravertial posting did what I wanted, i.e. ensured some more discussion on the very important matter of qualifications in our profession.
Firstly, in reply to your question, if I would employ someone with a degree in engineering? Of course I would. There's no question about that. I'm not anti-qualifications. In fact if I had my time over again I would have taken the degree path as I believe it to be much easier and quicker than the CGLI, ONC, HNC & HNC plus part time study which took me 9 years to complete, unlike the 3 or 4 year degree courses. So I'm not predudiced against inviduals with degrees.
If you read exactly what I was saying, it was that I believe that there's no short cut to experience which can only be gained by doing the job. There are many colleages of mine that I regard as very good engineers. Some have come in with degrees others with HNC's who have gone to get good honours degrees gained by part time study.
The point about the electric toothbrush (and kettle!) was aimed at the "know-it-alls" some who think because they've a recently aquired degree that there's no more to learn. Yes, this can also apply to those with ONC's and HNC's. In fact,it can apply to anyone in our profession. Even more so to some in the Medical profession who think that they also know our job.(From my own experience, I could give you some horror stories of a Medic messing around with Blood Gas Machine and buggering it up and others not unstanding how to use a Defibrillator properly - but they are Medics and think that they know everything - right!)
The point that I'm getting to is that I believe that you can never stop learning throughout the whole of your working life and that any qualification is merely a means to ensure that you have some knowledge and some capability for doing the job, it is not an end in itself.
Turning to your comments about me representing individuals as a trade union rep. I've been a union rep on and off for some 29 years. I'm currenty that Staff Side Chair and the AfC Terms & Conditions lead for my hospital. I believe that I've always represented members fairly (in fact, I cannot recall any case where the question of qualifications would have stopped me representing a member of my union when it was ASTMS, MSF or now AMICUS) I beleive that it's important that individuals in our profession join and participate in unions. It's been part of the problem in our profession that some believe themselves to be above being in the union as they are "professionals" (this is probably starting another argument!)However, if more individuals do this, especially with Agenda for Change they would not only understand the process, they would be properly part of it.
So, Richard does that answer some of your points. I hope it does and I look forward to our continuing correspondence on this site.
Ian Rez Eng Tech MIIE

Being in a union does not mean that you get any more information. I am in AMICUS and have seen the grand total of three items on AfC. One a voting form about continuing the process, and two articles in the magazine which were less than helpful.

To me, the only reason for being in a union is for legal representation should I ever need it (so far so good.....).

I have looked at rejoining the union but the cost puts me off - over £100 per year depending on your salary.
Having been a union rep in the past I cannot see how they can justify the cost.I got all the grief and they charged me for it!
I have to agree with techman the only reason to join is for legal represntation.