EBME Forums Forums Maintenance Technical Assistance Philips MRx and HeartStart XL Defibs

The Philips HeartStart XL ( M4735A) has 2 different charge time specs for Battery ( 3000ms) and AC ( 15000ms) mode - that’s @ 200J – however when I look at the Philips MRx Test and Inspection Matrix they don’t even specify a charge time test / check ? something I never noticed before ! – The MRx has a Lithium Ion battery and the XL a SLA battery which is the only difference I am aware of , however I would have thought a battery test would have taken care of that as a variable – any explanations or reasons for this difference would be appreciated , Thanks George

Hi George,

Do you mean to say that the MRx does not have Verification test wherein the the charge time of less than 5 seconds to 200 Joules with a new, fully charged M3516A SLA battery pack at 25º C (as stated in both the EMS Product Info and Hospital Product Info, of the Philips MRx page ) can be checked? I havent seen info on charge time using just AC power.

In comparison, as you had stated, HeartStart XL has in the Performance Verification Tests wherein testing can be done for Defibrillator Test (AC Power at 200J) and Defibrillator Test (Battery Power at 200J).

We have the HeartStart XLs but not the MRx. Do you have MRx in your facilty? Can you please confirm if the NIBP and ETCO2 has to be calibrated yearly or else you'll get a reminder on the top of the screen anytime the monitor is on? That you can either purchase the equipment to do the work or for the Philips Tech to come and do the work (woe if this was not included in the service plan). Either way, its extra cost out front.

Hi Alan , Our MRx's only have NIBP and yes they do come up with a reminder - however the cal is at 0 and 250 mmHg - very quick and simple .

There is no requirement to check charge time to 200J on both battery and AC on the MRx - unlike the HearStart XL - the local Philips guys tell me the charge time on battery is a battery test rather than a chatge time test - on battery the spec is 0 to 200J in 3 secs and AC 0 to 200J in 15secs - and as a result we are going to change all the battries - they vary between 2 and 4 years old

I would have thourght the MRx would have had the same test - however not

Cheers George

Hi George,

Appreciate the info, Thanks.

Hi George,

If according to your local Philips guy that the charge time on battery is a battery test rather than a charge time test, does it mean the the MRx does not have "Battery Capacitance Test" same as that with HeartStart XL ?

so how will you know if the batteries requires replacement? Depending on equipment use (ER, ambulance, etc), the batteries could require replacement before 2 years and using the ~3 hour "Battery Capacitance Test" of the XL was a good way to find out if the batteries are still capable of delivering the necessary "juice" .

We havent standardized to Philips for our defibs, not yet anyway, but its nice to know this info and maybe our local Philips distributor can shed further light on these matters.

Hi Alan/George,

Both the 3 secs and 15 secs are battery capacity tests operatong on different power source (dc and ac respectively). If the test proved that it takes longer than the specified time, the battery is expected to be changed. This is stated in the service manual. But since defibrillator is a life saving kit, we normally replaced the battery way ahead every 2 years. We believe prevention is better than cure.

In the older days, battery capacity test was tested quite stringently for its battery condition. Successive charges and discharges at full energy (360 joules) capacity to simulate loading the battery and towards the end of the 10 cycles of charge and discharge, the time taken for the defibrillator to attain full energy on the capacitor was taken. If the time taken exceeds 10 secs, the battery needs replacement. But with today's technology we do not need to perform these successive test again. Hope this is useful.

Regards

Hi Alan , Rodger

The MRx has a battery calibration option which allows you to confirm the batteries capacity ie at the end of this test it tells you 96% capacity

The XL also has a battery capacity test - it checks elapsed time and low battery time - and hence the confusion ( in my mind ) why you throw out a battery if it does not charge up to 200J in 3 secs , it seems a bit over the board .

I am still not convienced , however I have ordered new batteries

Cheers George

Hi George,

The other way to analyse the condition of the battery maybe through the use of a Battery Analyser. It may help save some amount of money as it evaluates, condition and prolong battery life. Try this http://www.cadex.com/

Hi Roger, George,

@Roger,

I agree that prevention is better than cure but I personally believe disposing a still functioning battery is wasteful. 2 years is our inhouse recommendation for battery replacement subject to results of checks. The batteries are checked not only for their ability to provide the necessary power to achieve the charge times as per manufacturer recommendations but also the time it takes before these machines fizzle out in monitor mode. One other thing to check is the physical condition of the battery as some batteries starts to bulge or leak way ahead of the 2 year period (i normally see this in cardiac monitors rather than defibs though).

In the old days, I normally just let the defib whack my Nevada Defib Tester about 2 to 3 times. The internal resistor could get pretty hot. So many defibs to go and only one defib tester .... .
In my opinion, though today's defibs have internal checks, checking defibs with an external defib tester is a good way to verify the performance of these machines.

@George,

Yes, i think its a shame to throw a battery just because it could not reach 3 seconds. When i used to help in the distribution of hp codemasters (those cute yellow ones or really ugly yellow ones depending on the color preference of the user), two of our selling points was that the codemaster charge up in less than 5 seconds to 360 and can do 50 defibs on batteries (though not necessarily in less than 5 seconds). We used to leave the Nihon Kohden salesman in tears when we do side by side demo (evil grin) . The lifepack 9 has to be less than 10 seconds charge time. The FR2+ has less than 5 seconds for manual shock and less than 10 seconds charge time from Shock Advised. Lifepak 12 is less than 10 seconds charge time to 360J.
If we have a defib which charges as long as the one used in the Mission Impossible movie, we'll change not only the battery but change the defib itself.

Seriously, the 3 second barrier is with the XL as well, as noted in the service manual -
"If the “ms to Charge” measurement is too high (unit takes too long to charge), verify that the battery is fully charged. If it is, the battery may simply be old. The 3000 ms specification is defined for a new, freshly charged M3516A battery. Replace the battery with one that is new and fully charged, and repeat the test."

It is also noted in the troubleshooting tables of HeartStart XL for defib and synchronized cardioversion :
Symptom: Charges slowly - about 4-5 sec. instead of 2-3 sec.
Cause: Battery too old or not fully charged.
Suggested solution: Replace with new, fully charged battery. Also run Battery Capacity Test on suspect battery.

But then the battery capacity test was used to confirm the status of the battery and if the results are Elapsed Time < 85 minutes or Low Battery Time < 10 minutes then the battery is replaced. but as you stated, the MRx did away with the capacity test and so its just the charge test and i guess MRx users will be stuck with the battery gauge.

Again Thanks for the info, battery replacement schedules will be a part of our tender requirements.