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bcarlisle #60771 04/04/12 10:45 AM
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Hi Robert,

I'm aware of a few that do this. The main team that I can think of are MEMO at University Hospital Bristol - they also provide the EBME deartment for Weston General.

There are also a few EBME teams that we have spoken to about working together for mutual commercial benefit. That is to say that we can share resources and both make money.

Wasn't there an earlier topic about some EBME departments that operate on zero budgets and that everything that they do is billed to the relevant department requiring their services? Surely that could be a model that some other trusts could adopt?

Regards,


Chris Horwood-Jones
bcarlisle #60772 04/04/12 10:47 AM
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Hi Chris, Geoff and anyone else interested, The point made by Chris above is correct. The specific terms of the Tender are unknown at this time as it is only at the PQQ stage. I raised the issue because of the shear size of the tender being looked at. This is no secret and anyone can still apply by expressing interest from the OJEU web site

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:81742-2012:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0

I am no lover of big business taking over hospital services ie privatisation through the back door. But I am no lover of state control either. I am a member of a coop and I believe this is a third way. We compete for business, take ownership and responsibility and accountability for what we do. We are democratic in the way we do business. I am looking for potential partners from the EBME community who would like to take some of this work from the bigger fish out there. I think it was Neil Kinnock who coined the phrase "dont get mad, get even"

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I'm pleased that you mentioned the word "fish" there, Phil ... because I'm still of the opinion that that is what it is:- simply a fishing exercise.

My recommendation would be to waste no further time on it. It's easy to get excited about "bidding", and easier still to spend (waste) many man-hours in putting together a decent proposal. But you can only do that if you are given (or more usually, buy) a decent RFP* in the first place.

If you had mentioned in the first instance that the extract you gave was from "Europe" ... I would have said "bin it" straight away. How can you be sure that the locations are not in Italy, or some such place? Or even (more likely) that contractors from "most favoured nation(s)" don't already have their names in the frame?

Forget it, Mate ... you'll just be "making up the numbers" (of bidders), if that. frown

* Request For Proposal (or "Document to Bid Against").

PS: I doubt that the phrase mentioned was coined by the particular gentleman you suggest ... nothing he ever said (or, presumably, still says) was likely to be original. As he is now a time-served free-loader on the EU gravy train (along with at least one other member of his family, of course), it wouldn't surprise me if the poorly drafted, vague and unhelpful document you cite came from his office.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
CHJ #60777 04/04/12 7:51 PM
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Yes, Chris ... a poor attempt at a Pre-Qualification Document.

The theory being that when (or if) a real RFP comes along, only bidders who have pre-qualified will be invited to bid.

I say "theory" because, as those of us who inhabit the Real World are only too aware, "money talks", so no doubt a "Pre-Qualification" could be hurriedly pushed through (or indeed, waived) should Mr.Big & Co. decide that they want to bid on the day.

As I say (and without in any way wishing to rain on Phil's parade of enthusiasm) ... a complete waste of time, effort and nervous energy for any of the posters to this forum whom I am aware of.

Forget it. frown

Further reading:-

1) One
2) Two


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RoJo #60778 04/04/12 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: RoJo
Has anybody done outsourcing the other way round? (In sourcing???)
i.e. an NHS hospital department selling their services to a private hospital/organisation.

Yes, Robert. I know of one or two. But not with great success, in my opinion. Frankly, they should have spent all their energies on what the tax-payer was paying them for*. That is, getting their own house (department) in order first. At least that way they would have had something to "showcase".

"Enthusiastic amateurs" is what I called them at the time. smile

* Not to mention "unfair competition" (like using tax-payer funded tools and test equipment to carry out "private" work). I should also mention "insurance" (as in:- lack of).


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Super Hero
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Originally Posted By: Phil Coulthard
I am a member of a coop and I believe this is a third way. We compete for business, take ownership and responsibility and accountability for what we do. We are democratic in the way we do business. I am looking for potential partners from the EBME community who would like to take some of this work from the bigger fish out there.

As you know, Phil, I have always been a proponent of co-operatives, and collaborative projects, myself. But (most likely due to my own failings as much as anything else) have never really been able to pull them off.

Perhaps I have been unlucky, but my search (over many years now) for "true buddies" with sufficient skill-sets (etc.) who are willing to share in all respects has only ever turned up slim pickings, to say the least. Most blokes I have ever come across are happy enough to "join in" once things get going, but those who are willing to take on a share of the risks (or, for that matter, the planning burden) as well are, shall we say, few and far between. frown

I'm pinning up this post now just to emphasise what you are saying. Who knows, perhaps someone will see it, and spark! smile


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bcarlisle #60782 05/04/12 9:09 AM
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Rojo - In response to your question, does any other NHS department do insourcing? - yes we do. We do work for local Private Surgeries, Carehomes and even Leisure Centres.

bcarlisle #60793 05/04/12 7:51 PM
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Well, I'll soldier on Geoff, someone will one day look for an alternative and who knows in the archives they may find this note. I am having a go at the PQQ, not too demanding, we have the financial standing now and track record.

We can have a go at most general rad units and ultrasound but I had hoped to cover general biomedical boxes, ECG, defibs ect. I used to work on this stuff years ago at Jimmy's but a bit out of touch. So if anyone wishes to pitch in and is qualified to so, please get in touch.

If anyone is wondering where the idea of the coop came from, it was the old Peripatetic music teachers in Newcastle, who were all made redundant during the Thatcher years. They formed a marketing coop, shared work, wrote song sheets and started building simple instruments which they sold. Simple stuff really. Its still going today.

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Super Hero
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Good luck with that, Phil. I'm sure we all wish you well. smile

That's a nice story about blaming Margaret Thatcher. But I think you'll find that workers co-operatives in England go back at least as far as the 1830's.

Yes, simple stuff. Wholesome, even ... but somehow at odds with the climate of greed and individual selfishness that we see all around us today. frown


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bcarlisle #60795 06/04/12 7:03 AM
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Perhaps someone can help me out with some basic maths. From this PQQ,

21 528,000,000 Maintenance packages for Imaging equipment,
4 23400000 Patient Assessment and Monitoring equipment

for item 21 based on around 500 trusts thats approx 1M per trust which is about right for the Radiology maintenance budget. If I apply the same reasoning to item 4 , that approx 47K for Patient monitoring. Is that the sort of figure spent today by current outsourced work to manufacturers? I honestly dont know. We did all of the repairs back in the 80's so the OEMs only installed the kit. Things may have changed. This is a 2 to 4 year framework so it could show the current governments thinking for the near future.

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