EBME Forums Forums Management Medical Equipment Management Seriously??

I have recently been contacting schools, sports centres etc regarding getting their defibs annually checked on a defib simulator as a self test will not pick up resistor faults... This is a response from ' a ' defib supplier. hold on to your seats

Hi Jo the xxxxxx defibs do not need testing or calibrating . These particular defibs are designed to self check / calibrate themselves on a weekly basis and if they find something in their systems that is wrong the device will prompt a spanner symbol to say it is broken . If the device has an ok symbol displayed and the pads are in date then the device is ok to use . These are not multi parameter defibs that you find in hospitals that do need to be calibrated and services manually . As the defib manufacturer to the xxxxxx devices we state that the xxxxxxxxw defib requires no servicing or calibration within its 8 year warranty period of 8 years . I would recommend that each school visually checks each day to see that the display states OK and to look through the little window on the device to see that the pads are in date . They should not be pressing the on button ( to open the lid ) to check the pads are in date .
The pads expire every 2 years and when they do the schools should order a new set . With the pads comes a free charge stick battery and this should be swooped over also .( even if they have never used the old charge stick ) if this is done the pads and charge stick expiry dates will correlate and expire at the same time . If schools are unsure how to swop the pads and charge stick over when it comes up to the 2 years they can ring me and I will advise how to do it .

There is absolutely no need for this company to do 'tests ' on year devices as they self calibrate themselves and will prompt if there is a fault .
If you still have concerns please call me . I do have a xxxxxxx checklist form that I can email you . It is a little tick box form that schools can tick off and say that somebody has visually checked the defib and a signature box to state who has checked it on what date

Hope this helps

Thanks ---
Sent from my iPhone


Thank god for the ' little ' spanner light!! ha ha!

I'm not impressed ... she can't spell swap!

Otherwise (and I realise it's not what you want to hear), I would say that what she's saying is correct. Those "toy"* defibs are best left alone, apart from daily "checking" as described. If you start testing them on a defib tester, then all you will be doing is running them down - thereby most likely making matters worse.

If you wanted to do something useful with them, you might try making sure that they're still securely fixed to the wall!

Meanwhile, it is traditional that the word God is capitalised (as I have shown it). As an aside, that was the reason that what later became the ASCII character set was originally in UPPER CASE only.

Sent from my iPhone ... somewhere in Spain?

* First responder ... whatever.

Hi Geoff,

It's OK, I was open to opinion and wondered what the more experienced views were on this matter. Thank you for the grammar lesson too, always comes in handy

' Toy defibs ' I like it

I totally agree with running them down a little but after having x2 defibs only last year that were saying self check all ok but then the one unit was only kicking out 16 joules? second test 40 joules and third 90 joules on the same unit.. total fail

OK ... here's another "experienced view":-

In my opinion those "defibs" are largely cosmetic. Or, if you like, mandated by Nanny on the all-embracing grounds of "Health and Safety" (legislation). If they fail to deliver (yes, a pun) then no doubt someone will be in line for a handsome wad of "compensation". After all, isn't that all that really matters these days? You know, someone (or something) to blame ... followed by a decent (that is, OTT) claim?

Again IMHO, I doubt that they save many lives. Or, let's put it another way:- does anyone have the figures regarding how many lives are actually saved (in the UK) by these things? Are they actually any better than traditional CPR? And also, how much does the taxpayer shell out to have these toys placed here, there, and everywhere ... and then, is it really money well spent?

http://www.heartrhythmcharity.org.uk/www/media/files/130128-FINAL-Step_1-Set_your_goals_doc.pdf

This link I found answers most of your questions Geoff.. By the way, I don't supply defibrillators, we just test them. Just wondered why companies pay so much money to have them installed but then don't want to pay out a few quid each year to ensure they actually work?. Perfect example, Fabrice Muamba's recent situation.. First x3 defibrillators did not function.

Thanks for the link, Lee. I didn't find any answers (to my questions) there ... but never mind.

Why do companies pay? Legislation, I should imagine. And, anyway, who does pay? In many (most?) cases I suspect it is one of the usual sources (that is, the "man in the street", the consumer, the rail passenger, the taxpayer et al).

I don't know who Fabrice Muamba is ... but I wonder when those "public-access defibs" were last looked at (by the "user"). And that's the trouble with the whole concept, I would have thought. Just who is responsible for them ... the passer-by? In short:- who is the "user"?

And (whilst I'm on), surely the real problem with them is ... well they don't just jump off the wall and apply themselves, do they? What if the passer-by just (for whatever reason - including fear of litigation, I should imagine) carries on passing-by? OK, I'm an old-fashioned guy, but I'm trying to find ways of avoiding the word "scam" (or, if you prefer, "racket") here.

How about settling for:- "a false sense of security"?

Yes, I realise you are talking about testing. And I'm not against any biomed trying to earn an honest crust, believe me.

We have had this issue and decided that we will still test them every 6 months with a defib tested to make sure the values are okay and also we don't trust the users to check the pad dates etc!
I wonder who would be liable if the self check system failed and nobody noticed??

Geoff - Fabrice Muamba was a professional footballer who as an otherwise fit and healthy young man suddenly had a heart attack in the middle of a big football game. Fortunately, despite a few people dithering, a doctor in the crowd realised exactly what was happening and was able to provide expert first aid. Fabrice is still here, had to quit football unfortunately, and finally had the undiagnosed heart defect he had been utterly unaware of treated. He is now a father, which would not otherwise have been possible.

Every now and again, very young people have heart attacks in similar situations (sporting events, training, etc). Bring so young, the first suspicions of those witnesses around them are that they have taken drugs or had an epileptic seizure, instead of realising that it is a heart problem. Many die.

I want to do the course to add to my First Aid at Work so that I am an acknowledged defib first responder, able to use the so-called "toy" defibs now dotted about big public buildings and remote villages alike.

The only issue I can see is where a company says "don't you worry your tiny mind about performance, and testing it will only use it up". That sounds alarm bells to me. I want them to be repeatably able in a crisis, not pegging out at a critical moment...

In use, the obstacles to success are 1) a sign saying "only members of staff may use this device", even when they are not around, or 2) the member of staff panics and decides not to use a perfectly adequate machine to save a life that would have been saved, on the grounds that they were frightened of litigation.

They have it right (or at least, better) in Germany, where many children are taught life-saving techniques in school. If you go to big events there, you see hardly any of the fake "security" staff so prevalent in the UK. Instead, you see groups of the local Red Cross volunteers, who are far more friendly and helpful.

I know a bit about "heart murmurs", Claire. In fact I'm having some T-shirts made with the slogan "Do Not Resuscitate" emblazoned across them. After all, surely every biomed knows what their own ECG looks like!

I agree that in a properly organised and motivated society, everyone should be able (and willing) to "have a go" to help anyone in need. Don't British kids get taught CPR? If not, why not?

Meanwhile, if manufacturers of medical equipment insist on using the latest technology (instead of reliable, proven, technology), then I wonder if AED's shouldn't contain circuitry by which (from which) a non-tech person could record the battery state - and an indication of the number of discharges remaining - simply by passing by with a BlueTooth (or some other suitable) logging device.

Geoff, in all the meddling in education in the UK over the last 20 years, CPR - which I would put firmly in essential personal and social development classes nationwide - does not seem to be high on the agenda. Come to that, it probably doesn't even feature under "any other business"...

When it comes to reliable technology, yes please - but a BlueTooth device that picks up the battery state sounds a bit unreliable. The Zoll batteries in the M series, for instance, can cause "battery under current" or "battery over current" alarms when they are on charge for ages without being used/discharged. Not so smart now, are they?!