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Super Hero
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Super Hero
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Originally Posted by Ian Chell
The bottom line for up and coming radiology engineers is - don't look back and stick to what you are taught about current equipment.
I can't argue with that, Ian - in fact it's sound advice (just as long as they don't venture far beyond these shores, that is).

The same philosophy could be adopted for all equipment, of course.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
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Savant
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Originally Posted by Geoff Hannis
No doubt you're right about involving a Health Physicist, Ian ... but I think you'll find that notions of speed ("Speed Class", "Sensitivity" and what-have-you) - 100, 300, 400 etc. - do not directly relate to the algorithms pertinent to CD/DR ... hence the use of the "Exposure Index" in modern systems.

On the other hand (and rather confusingly) I have seen data from various manufacturers (Agfa, Fuji) - that may well be out of date by now - that do indeed mention "speed" in some of their published algorithms (for instance, "equivalent screen/film system speed" - referred to as S-value).

The EI is related to the radiation dose received by the imaging plate and should be similar for all exposures made for a specific examination (eg, lumbar spine AP, and what-have-you). This provides a way to monitor and record the radiation dose submitted and to determine if there are changes due to specific radiographers, particular x-ray rooms, or over time etc.. The EI is a useful metric for quality control.

The trouble is that (for instance) the Fuji S-value differs to the Philips EI, which does not relate directly with the Agfa EI ... etc., etc. ... so yes, great care needs to be taken by "clever people" concerned (such as the Physicist)!

Back in Ye Olde days of film cassettes, we needed to be careful about "speed" ... not only in terms of intensifying screens (inside film cassettes) but also regarding he film itself ("fast" film etc.). Needless to say, there are many interesting aspects involved in the production of x-ray images.

Meanwhile (for anyone else interested), there is a lot of this stuff available on line:- this report (.pdf) for example. This .pdf is also good. Looking up "Agfa MUSICA" should prove interesting as well (for those seeking current "state of the art"). I find myself wishing we had info. like this available "back in the day".
Originally Posted by Geoff Hannis
No doubt you're right about involving a Health Physicist, Ian ... but I think you'll find that notions of speed ("Speed Class", "Sensitivity" and what-have-you) - 100, 300, 400 etc. - do not directly relate to the algorithms pertinent to CD/DR ... hence the use of the "Exposure Index" in modern systems.

On the other hand (and rather confusingly) I have seen data from various manufacturers (Agfa, Fuji) - that may well be out of date by now - that do indeed mention "speed" in some of their published algorithms (for instance, "equivalent screen/film system speed" - referred to as S-value).

The EI is related to the radiation dose received by the imaging plate and should be similar for all exposures made for a specific examination (eg, lumbar spine AP, and what-have-you). This provides a way to monitor and record the radiation dose submitted and to determine if there are changes due to specific radiographers, particular x-ray rooms, or over time etc.. The EI is a useful metric for quality control.

The trouble is that (for instance) the Fuji S-value differs to the Philips EI, which does not relate directly with the Agfa EI ... etc., etc. ... so yes, great care needs to be taken by "clever people" concerned (such as the Physicist)!

Back in Ye Olde days of film cassettes, we needed to be careful about "speed" ... not only in terms of intensifying screens (inside film cassettes) but also regarding he film itself ("fast" film etc.). Needless to say, there are many interesting aspects involved in the production of x-ray images.

Meanwhile (for anyone else interested), there is a lot of this stuff available on line:- this report (.pdf) for example. This .pdf is also good. Looking up "Agfa MUSICA" should prove interesting as well (for those seeking current "state of the art"). I find myself wishing we had info. like this available "back in the day".

You’re right Geoff, I was just trying to keep my response simple

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Super Hero
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Fair enough, Ian; but let's not forget the wider audience (who may also be interested).

Meanwhile, I'm genuinely wondering what you teach your students - where do you start (how far back do you go), and where do you finish (what are they able to do at the end)?


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
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Savant
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Hi Geoff, I spend a couple of hours in the BCU x-ray room and show them the modules as well as the medical locations requirements that are specific to an x-ray room.

I work my way from the mains isolator to the HT generator control cabinet and show them the various parts like the table in the room, the OH tube crane and chest stand.

The home work is to fill in the boxes I draw and link them with simple lines showing the voltages on the lines.

The tube has lines to show the HT supply and filament supply, the rotating anode, earth and any overheat controls.

The main focus of the following lecture is how the HT is created and intermediate DC is switched by the thyristor stacks, the various voltage type levels and how the filament is driven via the cathode HT. Then I quickly cover the rotating anode supply.

This basic approach applies to all x-ray generation. It’s like modern internal combustion engine theory, they can learn about carbs and points at a later date.

I have learned to back right off as it’s a minor part of the course but one of the aims is to also teach them how to think in and write about modules first.

Last edited by Ian Chell; 19/04/22 12:24 PM.
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Super Hero
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Thanks for that, Ian.

Yes; I like your style - "block diagrams" and voltage levels (very important). Plus "location of components" (saves embarrassment later).

My only other comment would be about waveforms (frequency etc.); maybe you should expect to see those (a simple sketch) in the "boxes" as well.

Lastly, do your students get to do any fault finding?

Not sure about carbs, though; it's all fuel injection and electronics (mapping) now.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
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Savant
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I agree with your point about waveforms but my main aim is to get them to be able to communicate all basic device modules. I do cover waveforms in my lectures but few do their assigned homework on the blocks before my main lecture.

Yes they do fault finding on my simple psu which is spread out and mounted on clear perspex and has loads of test points to do on load and off load voltage measurements and volt drop to understand bad joints etc. I even split it up so they can see what happens when you add the smoothing cap to the rectifier.

My point about carbs is that you mentioned do you teach old x-ray HT generation technology - my point was - stick to the latest HT generation techniques then when they want to understand deeper electrical theory, you can also teach them the old tricks - but this is really for dedicated x-ray engineers

Last edited by Ian Chell; 26/04/22 9:18 AM.
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Scholar
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I allow myself to share this document, which although it is related to a brand, is very didactic in the representation of the points mentioned.


https://mega.nz/file/XU8xkQrD#NSrfA5qAdqT3ozoCbOTZmH7Wytvb10pPQtBAqLBgstY

Last edited by vitapablo; 11/05/22 12:04 PM.
1 member likes this: John Sandham
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Super Hero
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That's a useful document (Siemens course notes?) ... with some nice graphics and block diagrams. Thanks for sharing, Pablo.

I have the same document in .pdf format. Like the .doc version it has internal links that do not work. But if anyone needs the .pdf, feel free to get in touch.


If you don't inspect ... don't expect.
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