EBME Forums Forums Free discussion Free discussion Clinical engineer and Medical engineer

Hello
Just a query, what is the difference between a Clinical engineer working within a Medical physics dept and a Medical engineer working within an EBME dept?
Thanks for any feedback
Ryan

Ryan, it's not often I'm right - so someones bound to correct me - Except for possibly a lower salary, the only difference would be your chances for getting to the top of the tree as Medical Physics Departments have Physisists at the top of the tree. In an EBME Dept you could start at MTO 1 and work your way up to MTO 6 the highest grade.

Ryan, a Clinical Engineer is usually paid on the Grade B or C Clinical Scientists payscale. These days you will have to undergo the two year Grade A Trainee Clinical Scientist/Engineer scheme and study for an MSc.

Brian, I thought that MTO5*** was the highest you could get, must be different up in Enfield. It is not always Physicists that are top of the trees in Medical Physics Departments. You can get Consultant Grade Clinical Engineers who are Head of Medical Physics Departments, I know of a few around the country. Isn't our respected colleague Alex from Dewsbury a C Grade Clinical Engineer and Head of his Med Phys dept? I could be wrong but maybe Alex could confirm or deny.

I work as an engineer within an EBME Dept and have worked in a 'traditional' Medical Physics dept. The term seems to be used in a variety of guises. I believe a clinical engineer could be involved in research, management, training, or technical work, this could be in an EBME dept or Med phys dept. It is possible to achieve higher grades than MTO5 in an EBME dept, but the roles would normally involve strategic responsibilities at Senior Manager level. Under these circumstances it is possible to earn equivalent rates to Clinical Scientist grades. Medical engineer, Clinical engineer? Can't see the difference.

I can only speak for my own personal experience here guy's and please note my thoughts are not necessarily the opinion of EBMEville members .

Simply put.

MASONIC SNOBERY

LIII

Hi Louis,
Could,nt agree more most of the "Prima Donna " Biomeds I,ve met prefer the Clinical Engineer title. !!
I did,nt realise you were in the secret handshake mob !!
Do you recognise me ???

I'm a bit confused; this thread seems to be discussing other professions, that can have involvement in equipment maintenance, at a higher level than most of us are involved at. Aren't 'Clinical Engineer' and certainly 'Clinical Scientist' protected job titles - protected by state registration and subject to regulation? Hard fought for titles usually held by qualified Engineers or Scientists whose have been formally trained and assessed 'fit to practice'.

My view of the 'club culture' is that it is membership or affiliation to the professional institutions that demonstrates commitment to the profession. However I know of registered Clinical Scientists that belong to no institution or 'club'. I'm not into justifying the systems in place but I don't feel that it's a club or a secret society - just a profession - like many of us would like to see in existence for our own job roles.

Whilst there are those in equipment management roles who may perform similar tasks and have duties that may pitch them at 'Clinical Engineer' level; the use of the title 'Medical Engineer' does not actually confer any status does it? i.e. it's not a protected title that conveys anything. The 'club', referred to by Louis, is, in my opinion, a means of excluding non-qualified TDHs from setting up in business and calling themelves what they like and practising in areas they have not formally demonstrated competence in. Doctors, Nurses, Physiotherapists, etc, etc, all have their own club if you like.

I suppose the difference between 'Clinical Engineer' and 'Medical Engineer' is that those entitled to use the protected title 'Clinical Engineer' or 'Clinical Scientist' are qualified at the appropriate level, have been trained, assessed, have demonstrated their experience and competence. Many of those who call themselves 'Medical Engineers' or 'Biomedical Engineers' in equipment maintenance (EBME usually) just have a job title bestowed on them by the employer or call themselves for the sake of their own vanity.

Whether we like it or not most of us in equipment maintenance are not qualified, trained, experienced enough, not even carrying out the duties necessary, nor required to attain 'Clinical Engineer' status to do our job: that's the fact - the arrogance is on the part of those who think they are equivalent when in fact they're not necessarily. Lets face it; most of us are qualified and experienced at Technician level and some are qualified and registered at Engineer level.

Despite many performing elements of Managerial, Scientific or Engineer roles at whatever technical level in equipment maintenance/technical support there's currently a lack of training and assessment to justify the title, the salary or career structure. Those that are qualified and experienced appropriately could have pursued a Clinical Engineering career if they had wished but they would have to go through the "training-hoops" to get there.

That's the element that seperates us. Quite simply, despite the job titles bestowed on us by the employer, we are Technicians or Technologists with unprotected titles; any old TDH can use whatever title they wish at the moment. Healthcare Scientist, Medical Technical Officer, Clinical Technologist, Medical Physics Technician, Biomedical Engineeer, Medical Engineer, Medical Electronics Technician, etc, etc, etc - a ludicrous situation for individuals carrying out much of the same work in equipment maintenance at whatever level you wish to target.

All these titles have little meaning to describe what individuals do and what qualifications, training, experience they have to possess, in their job role, at the moment. A skills lottery where demand and difficulty employing staff may put relatively poorly equipped individuals into roles that are beyond them in some cases. Only when your qualifications, skills, experience and knowledge to do your job are assessed formally, so that only those entitled to use the appropriate, protected, job title - and when everyone knows what the job involves, will it have meaning.

RL, you are right that the Clinical Scientist title is protected by the HPC. This means that anybody claiming to be a Clinical Scientist who is not registered with the HPC on the Clinical Scientist part of the register can be prosecuted. I too know of many registered Clinical Scientists who are not members of IPEM. Additionally I know of IPEM members who are not registered Clinical Scientists, they have to call themselves something else even though they are paid as Clinical Scientists. I even know one or two people paid as Clin Sci who are neither IPEM members nor state registered.

The title Clinical Engineer is not protected at present but practising Clinical Engineers are registered as Clincical Scientists. This may change in due course due to the increase in Clinical Engineers completing the IPEM Grade A Trainee Clincal Engineer/Scientist scheme.

I suppose the Clincal Engineer and Clinical Scientist came about to differentiate between Engineers and Physicists. Think pre IPEM when it was BES and IPSM, in those days you could be both a Chartered Engineer and a Clinical Engineer and use the designatory letters ClinEng to go with it. The latter has now vanished as not many people held that title.

Richard,
Very succinct. I agree that many of us who have worked in an environment where we have been 'put down' do feel a little resentment (generally towards individuals). Many of us are equally academically qualified, and many of us 'ebme types' are registered engineers (meeting the IEng or CEng status) but do not meet the criteria for clinical scientist grades.
Bioman, I was surprised to see you say that you know people being employed/paid as clinical scientists who are not state registered. Surely this is against the law?

John,
I am afriad it is not against the law, it is only against the law to claim to be a clinical scientist when you are not registered as one as it is a protected title. If you are paid as a Clinical Scientist and are not registered you can call yourself something else like Medical Device Specialist etc. The law only forbids you claiming to be one if not registered, it doesn't prevent you from being paid as one.

The HPC is currently going through a transitional period for people being paid as Clinical Scientists who are not currently registered. They have until July 2005 to apply under the Grandparenting scheme.

To complicate things, unregistered Clinical Scientists who were practising in July 2003 when the register opened can continue to use the title until July 2005 when the transitional period expires, after that time if they still have not registered they will have to use a non protected title.

When AfC finally comes this would be an ideal time to try and lose the boundaries between the the people employed on MTO's and those employed as Clinical Scientists as we will all be on the same pay scale and differentiating factor removed. As for your comment re not meeting the criteria for Clinical Scientists grades, I was orginally on the MTO scale. I applied for my current post which was advertised on a CS grade, I got it. Don't be put off as at interview you will have the opportunity to show what you know and what you can do.