Is it me? Or have I noticed a definite trend towards what was once considered to be senior positions / duties within the EBME world being advertised a Band or two below Agenda for Change agreed job profiles.
Also the introduction of "Senior Assistant Technical posts" at very low bandings.

Whereas we have experienced (on the whole) the good times when the valuable role we undertake had been recognised (AFC!) and rewarded, current vacant roles are either not being filled, or they are advertised below what I would consider to be a fair and equitable salary.

In some cases, financial constraints (NHS), and in the private sector prudent business skills dictate these changes; I find this trend somewhat disheartening. When trying to attract young, talented, new blood into this employment sector, it will become increasingly difficult to fill these posts with the calibre of employee we need.

Also for those in our field who wish to advance their careers, (I take on board any comments from Geoff, yes mate! some are quite happy as they are) opportunities are somewhat limited, if not non-existent. Remuneration used to be commensurate with increased responsibility.

It would appear that in these difficult times, we may be failing to attract the best in what is a very competitive marketplace.

I think it's known as "market forces", Sean. Either that or "we knew it couldn't last for ever"!

Meanwhile, I believe I may have already given the answer (at another thread) to your apparent dilemma:- recruit from overseas (Eastern Europe especially).

I don't think I'm being too harsh when I say that (in general) young Brits don't want to work. In short, they have been sold the idea that the world owes them a living (or whatever). All they need is a Degree in "media studies" or "the performing arts", then it's all aboard the Gravy Train!

Thirteen years of socialist BS has led to that sorry state of affairs. Anyone who doubts that need look no further than yesterday's "student activities" in London.

"Attract the best"? When have we ever done that? Everyone I know who is of any use is (was) ex-something else or other!

Funded by the British taxpayer, the NHS does not (should not) exist simply to "advance careers" ... it is supposed to be concentrating on caring for the sick, injured and needy, etc., etc.

But lastly, how can you advance further if you're already, shall we say, out in front, at centre left field?

A few points to respond to:

Eastern Europe recruitment may be a solution, but I believe there are enough qualified candidates within the UK, then EU (in that order.

I think you are being too harsh, your rant against students, and young people(in general) is in my opinion unfounded, the vast majority want to take up employ in a well structured and rewarded career role, (in whatever field they choose).

Students have the right to protest against cuts, as indeed anyone else has. I wouldn’t be so broad in my view as to tar them all with the same brush, blame those who high jacked a previously peaceful protest.

We do attract the best in the NHS, as anyone who has sat on an interview panel will tell you Geoff; currently we have an average of 80 applicants for every vacant position.

The NHS exists to provide quality healthcare, you can’t deliver that service without attracting and retaining quality staff, (retention includes being able to fulfill career aspirations).

Wasn't Agenda For Change put in place so that a certain job had a certain pay and thats it??! Financial constraints etc should have no say in it.

Personally I think there should be restrictions on the use of the word "Senior" in a job title too. No Job title should contain the word Senior unless that post has seniority over other employees.

In that case, Sean ... how come NHS biomed departments have so much grief trying to fill vacancies? Many appear to be re-advertising over and over again.

Believe it or not, I have sat on NHS interview panels. Sorry Mate, but I wasn't impressed by any of those short-listed (from a list of twenty or so no-hopers).

And (about "the young"), perhaps I've just been unlucky in the students I've come across, then. Notice that I'm saying "student".

Take a close look at the faces of those misbehaving yesterday ... it's them who's "having a laugh"! Once they have tried real work for a while, then they can "demonstrate" if they must (and are not too tired).

@Cyber: as in Senior Sales Assistant in places of renown like Maplin's, Halfords et al then?

Hello Geoff & Cyberdog

Plenty of applicants (wrong skills mix, or lacking relevant experience). We fail to appoint, (and then we re-advertise) because in an ideal world we want staff who can contribute from day one (not after a lengthy and costly training / induction phase).

To attract such experienced staff, you need to provide the appropriate attractive job package

The topic is current vacancies Geoff, (not student bashing) but in the interests of free speech, have your say.

Cyberdog - I agree, Senior ***** Assistant, sounds like a retail post.

Also Agreements under Agenda for Change seem to be going out of the window, just look at some of the posts which advertise salaries structures outside agreed Banding structures.

Watch this space....

Yes ... Current Vacancies. Not being filled.

It's Armistice Day. I didn't notice any "students" at the War Memorial I attended just now, Sean. Perhaps they're still in kip, following yesterday's exertions.

Good Luck to Them!
I would rather have people attending of their own volition, rather than being forced too.

You may, or may not agree with their viewpoint, they have freedom of choice, that's the whole point Geoff of defending rights and liberties.

Whilst I might not always agree with our imperfect society, I would defend the rights of individuals, whether they be young student's, (or old soldier's).

Can we please return to topic?

Geoff,
I think it has been established that the rioting/damage was caused by a small group of anarchists who used the otherwise peaceful protest to push their own agenda.

If you look closely at the vacancy you'll notice that the minimum requirement is 5 GCSE's and for someone just out of school band 3 is pretty good.

What makes it look strange is the Snr, even in Terry Pratchett's book Going Postal Junior Postman Groat had to wait until he was 50 before being considered senior and apparently that came with hat wearing responsibilities.

You would have thought that a requirement to be considered Snr was that the candidate was no longer wet behind the ears.

Its not just in the hospitals

have you seen this
http://www.kirkhamyoung.co.uk/medical-search-results.php?id=1136

I don't think anyone with these skills would be out of work and wanting such a low salary.

Are you having a laugh now, then, Scott?

I would say that £ 26 k is the going rate for the sort of position being advertised there.

How much are you on, we wonder?

The point is that your working alone and expected to be an expert.
As such, the salary should reflect that.

I do not think that the post will be filled by anyone from the NHS as they would already be on more than that and have a reliable stream of tea! anyone in a similar role would not want to move in this climate for an extra £1K or so.
Me, Geoff - I'm on less than £30K but have to go into renal unit where some techs are on far more than that and are not that good!
(don't get me wrong some of them are in the band 6/7 region and earn their money)

Well, Scott, I'm on even less ... but that's not the real point here, is it?

Like you I work in the Private Sector. So, I'm wondering why our NHS buddies keep moaning and groaning ... whilst (as at least you and I know), they are in actual fact on a pretty good crack already (and they know it - or should do)!

Just wondering Geoff are you on less than £30k because you tend to spend a lot of time on this site??

Are you having a laugh now, then, Richard?

But, to answer your question:- *probably.

To be honest, Mate (unlike, it would seem, most others who get on here), money doesn't represent the "be all and end all of life" to me.

You see, there is always a Bigger Picture. But unfortunately, most blokes are so far up their own [censored] that they never get to realise that!

How much are you on, we wonder?

* But I do work irregular hours. That, and being able to multi-task to a certain extent.

Ok Scott I bet half a dozen people have already searched to see if there's any jobs going in KIMAL.

The typical salary in the NHS for this post would be band 6 so the link you posted would be typical.

Although going to another extreme I did notice this http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/showvac/uEv15_/900877/912572038 now this is unusual. Estates have typically been the whipping boys of Agenda for Change often seeing pay cuts of upto £6000, therefore to see a band 7 post run by estates must be a miracle!

Just to throw a spanner in the works, with the cost of living in the Uk being higher than here, paying taxes, of which I am not used to I would not return to the UK for less than 50k. The fact that I do not want to return is another point (weather would not suit me anyway)

Don't worry, Neil, you're safe there. The chances of you being offered £ 50 k approximate to zero, I'm afraid.

Experience of the type gained from long years in places like Saudi Arabia count for zilch here, take it from me. Most of the geniuses encountered in the UK couldn't even place it on a map of the world! But worse than that, it is rare to meet someone who appreciates what it all means (or meant) in terms of resourcefulness, leadership, long hours ... and all the rest.

One day you will make to leave the Magic Kingdom, and if you don't like the weather in UK then where will you go Neil......?

Where will I go? Home of course 'Thailand' either in Udon or Pran Buri

Umish, how come you're responding to Sean ... yet questioning Neil?

How come you didn't already know that Neil's home is in Thailand? Don't you pay attention to other people's posts?

Indeed, why do you persist in baiting Neil?

Where's your home, Umish?

For my own part ... I am in England because that's where I was born, and (regrettably) I have no other place to go.

Meanwhile, back at the topic:-


More like "making the best of a bad job", Mate!

Good Morning Geoff

I would agree that in comparison to the Private Sector, NHS staffs that perform an equivalent role are on better terms and conditions, and I would wish that the Private Sector employed staff could receive the same benefits.

It’s not about moaning, and that we don’t know how well off we are. It’s about ensuring that hard fought for terms and conditions are not adversely affected.

AFC had its faults but it was a hell of a lot better than the dreaded "Hayes Evaluation". Both management and staff side signed up to the AFC principles, and by and large it worked.
I don’t wish to see the hard work and personal efforts of a lot of individuals come to nought.

Yes in comparison, we here are are "well off", and I acknowledge current financial pressures.

Happy staff who feel they are valued, work well, (on that I hope we can all agree).

Value takes on different forms for different people. Some prefer the "well done, thanks for a great effort" approach, and some prefer that "you are of value" to be more tangible (£££) (nothing the matter with that at all), praise though rewarding, does not pay the bills.

If you’re prime motivation is a leaning towards the philanthropic, fine. But if you’re prime motivation is keeping a roof over your head and feeding the kids, that's okay by me as well

We live in an imperfect world, and we must strive to make the best of a bad situation. Its not about greed or money grubbing, it’s about recognition of skills, and a fair wage.

Mornin' Sean


But surely y'all are already getting all that. So what's the problem?

The problem is ensuring that we continue to do so, and I intend to lobby to maintain the status quo for my staff.

I am pleased to note that at least some Trusts are continuing to advertise a fair and equitable wage for a senior position. Good Morning, Garrith, Keep up the Good Work.

So it’s not just me, who wants to attract the best......

Personally, I find the wages in the NHS for hands on service technicians to be very poor with respect to the Private Industry. Albeit, I'm comparing it to service engineering in a different discipline. If you are a relative newcomer to the NHS there are just so many increments before getting a decent wage. This may be OK if young but not so good if towards the end of your working life.

Are you a wind-up merchant, Barney? How about defining what you mean by a "decent wage" (and don't forget security of employment, only 37 hours a week, flexible working practices and - oh yes - a pension at the end of it)!

Biomed (in the UK, at least) is not really about making money, is it? OK, I know a few blokes who have struggled on for many years carrying their own biomed business in the much-beloved Private Sector. But it's not easy (ask Jandre), and in monetary terms at least, probably not worth the craic. You often get let down by your blokes (the techs), you know.

I also know blokes who have lost everything (their money, their house, their marriage ... their health even). Are you (or many others) "up" for that sort of risk?

But I suspect that most biomeds don't want all that hard work, hassle, worry and grief. Most are happy enough doing the sort of work they enjoy, within a comfortable framework (the NHS, for example). There's nothing wrong with that. But you have to compare like for like. Rushing around the country as a "service engineer" is not what NHS biomeds do, is it?

Also, looking at matters objectively, why should an older guy expect more? I don't know about you, but personally speaking I was undoubtedly better (read, more employable) in most measurable ways in my late twenties than I am now ... er, many years later!

Not these days unfortunately. Posts frozen and then lost seem to be the order of the day.
No compulsory redundancies .....yet. But the threat is there with the next round of cuts.
Robert

"Frozen posts" sound pretty secure to me, Robert. Perhaps "ghost posts" would be a better term.

They are not techs out of a job are they, but simply posts left unfilled.

We've heard all this before, Mate. Just take a trip back through similar threads on this website.

Scare mongering?

OK ... let's have another poll (we haven't had one for a while, after all) ... how many NHS techs are also Daily Mail readers?

By my reckoning: 4 posts frozen then lost so far plus three posts created on paper when extra work was taken on and never filled as they had to be given up as a cost cutting measure.

It is hard to keep track of numbers; a person leaves then a while later you realise the post has not been advertised - but it usually takes a bit of time in normal circumstances - and then you are told that it will never be advertised. If this happens over a few years you loose track of exactly which post has been filled and which has not.

I wish it was scare mongering.
Robert

You can rest assured that things happen a little quicker than that on the Dark Side, Robert.

You would have no problem with keeping track of the comings and goings there, believe me.

At the end of the day pay peanuts get monkeys or cowboys. There is too much of this defeatism within our trade, they are paying for your knowledge. How many times do you go into a ward that is flapping and you sort it in 2 seconds. Alot of the time it is fixed over the phone.
They are getting you for cheap, have you had a look at contract prices on some gear. You provide a near instant service. We would rather have a machine that is fully functioning that we have taken our time on than this get it sent away attitude as it is taking too long. When it returns you have to test it anyway so how has that saved anytime or resources, false economy if you ask me.

Real cowboys don't chew on peanuts, Billy!

Why do some constantly snipe about NHS employee’s terms and conditions?

There appears to be some polarized critism of NHS employees on this forum.

For what it’s worth, this is my take on the situation, I have worked in the Private Sector (large, medium and small firms), Self Employed, Public Sector, Contractors and two brief periods of unemployment due to redundancy (remember Mrs. M Thatcher).

Each form of employment has good and not so good elements. Some may choice erroneously to paint the Public Sector as being cushy, bitterly citing advantages but there are many advantages in other forms of employment. When I worked for myself there were tax advantages, when I worked for agency contractors I enjoyed high pay and flexibility, when I worked in the Private sector there were bonuses and lucrative share save schemes; each form of employment provides plus and minus points. Even my two brief periods of unemployment were positive, I enjoyed the rest.

So don’t be fooled by the polarized spin, the job of an NHS EBME technician deserves good pay and a decent pension, after all you are paying 6% into the scheme.

As for a descent wage, many technicians’ posts are graded as Band 5; with a salary range of just above £21,100 to start and (after too many increments) finish around £27,500.

What sort of employer expects to attract qualified engineering technicians on £21k?

I've worked for both sides so know the dis/advantages to both.

You're never likely to get sacked working for the NHS unless you mess up big time no matter how 'good' you are at your job.
There are little time constraints on tasks and even if there is see point 1.
You get regular working hours unless you are on call and even then there is usually some kind of compensation .
There is nearly always someone next to you or near by to ask advice from or to lend a hand.
The pension scheme is fantastic compared to the private sector.
You get a shed load of holidays (and get to use them).
As long as you are not at the top of the band, you get regular, decent pay increments.
The only clear disadvantage was that once you reach the top of your banding it's then a case of dead mens shoes to progress.

Now if I have to travel to a job on Monday morning from the NW to say Cardiff and have to be there when then tech's arrive @ 8am I have two options a) travel on Sunday and stay in an hotel overnight thus wasting 5hrs+ of MY time (which I don't get back) b) travel on Monday morning and set off at ridiculous o'clock to get there at 8am.
Your working day may finish at 5pm and then you might have 5mins to an hours travel time home - I might be lucky and finish at 5pm but then I might have 5 hours to drive home and then have to do all my paperwork/emails/replications ready for the next day.

So yes I do get paid considerably more and have a nice car (but get taxed on it don't forget) - that's why I left the NHS, and yes, I do get on-call days but it's not a day off - you have to be available to go at the drop of a hat, but where you guys might work a 38 hours week for 5 days, I might have to do a 7-day week of 10+ hour days (and not be paid any overtime - 'just get it done'). Contract prices aren't just made up of my time on site - there are hotels, wages, fuel, parts, profit etc are all to go in there and how do we know how often we are going to be called out, I might do all that travelling etc just to change a light bulb if the hospital has a 'it's on contract - call 'em out' mentality.

I thought I was fairly paid when I worked in the NHS, definitely not underpaid but the grass always looks greener on the other side (from both side of the fence I may add) and for me the regular hours is what I absolutely miss the most.

Uh, well I do, but only because they still have a decent online presence. I don't particularly enjoy their fairy story take on the public sector (if it's really so brilliant, why do we have trouble recruiting people?).

As to the point of job security; a former colleague of mine was recently told that funding for her post was to be withdrawn. Doesn't sound all that secure. Fortunately, she got a job elsewhere before the money ran out.

Flexible working practices? Is that when one is sent to another hospital to help clear their backlog?

No, not really. What I meant by "flexible working practices" was being able (in most cases) to work the hours suited to the individual, plus "time off in-lieu", opportunities for training, CPD ... and all the rest.

Anyway ... what's wrong with lending a hand at another hospital, just as long as it's part of the National Health Service?

I should imagine that you may have a problem recruiting people mainly because (as I keep saying) there just aren't that many techs available. Certainly amongst the young. For instance, where would they come from these days (where would they have been trained)? It is not just the NHS that faces this problem.

Please don't tell me your a Daily Mail reader Geoff.

I'm surprised reading it doesn't exclude you from the EBME field, I mean visit a mental health unit to fix something and they'd rush for the ECT

The Daily Mail is probably a reason people bash the NHS, that paper rots your brain hope you don't get your facts from there

Sorry to disappoint Chris, but I wouldn’t class myself as a Daily Mail reader. In fact I don’t take any newspaper(s) at all. Neither do I watch TV. When I feel the need to find out what’s going on, I generally check-out various sites on the web. I could suggest a few if you like.

The reason I mentioned it earlier was by way of recommendation to our friends, the scare mongers.

But don’t tell me that you’re a Guardian reader, Chris (one of the liberal intelligentsia)?

Don’t worry, I am already excluded from the "EBME field". If indeed there is such a thing, it would only be found within the NHS, I would have thought.

Meanwhile, I like to think that I take issues on merit. That is, I'm usually able to make up my own mind, without having to resort to ECT (something that I know a bit about, by the way).

You don't need to look very far for reasons why people bash the NHS. I assume that you all do try and keep up with current events, regardless of which newspaper you have the time to read.

Also sorry to disappoint you Geoff, but if you put something like Daily Mail and a negative word into Google it's hard to find the webpage your searching for without having to sift through the whole of the Daily Mail's previous news stories. The Guardian article was the only other result on the page.

Well, I'm happy with my job and I'm happy with the wages.
I'm now the supervisor in our Medical Electronics dept - no extra money, as band 6 is already a supervisory grade. Not that I'm moaning.
My 'additional duties' make for interesting challenges...
We will be in a postion soon when we will need to fill some vacant positions - this will be challenging for us.
We've recently taken on our very first apprentice - the saviour for our future.
The trouble is,it's becoming difficult to recruit experienced technicians with a few miles left on their clock.

Cheers
Mark

This thread appears to be heading towards 'class wars'

It's always interesting to see the arguments between NHS biomeds and their private sector equivalents over pay. The biggest problem in comparing the two is the fact that the NHS still sticks with the annual increment model. Obviously potential employees will look at the bottom of the pay band and think "I can't work for that" and also realise that that they'll have to wait (work!!) upto 8 years to get a half decent wage. Does anyone know why we (NHS) still have this weird system in place? They missed the chance to sort it out with AfC.

I think it's known as a "loyalty incentive" ... that is, an annual increment to encourage techs to hang in. And, then, after that - soldier on until they get their pension.

Otherwise, they might decide to jump ship to join the so-called private sector in the pursuit of a few more shillings a week!

Also, if "jeeps"* came in straight away at the same rates as experienced blokes, that would hardly be fair on the old sweats, would it?

Meanwhile, I don't think you can really make a fair comparison between NHS techs and "private sector equivalents", Bill. I would say that Rob1234's post made yesterday sums it all up quite well.

* Young, inexperienced, techs.

Hello Bill
For those of us who come from the Estates Officer background, the AFC incremental rise structure was a blessing. Instead of being stuck on the same grade forever, it allowed career and comparable pay progression to newcomers, as your experience and duties broadened.
I don’t think it unreasonable that new starters enter at the lowest spinal point within a band, (we all had to start somewhere). To some extent, I would agree with Geoff's observation that some people have unrealistic salary expectations. If an external potential employee has additional skills of value you can always request a "variation order" which allows appointment further up the scale.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on Agenda For Change terms and conditions, as there are moves afoot to restructure things completely by aligning incremental pay progression to behavioural criteria, (sickness absence, mandatory training etc.)

Hi Sean,
I've not come across this latest restructuring idea, do you have any more info on it?
My point was really that there should be fewer increments with a clearly defined career path, a bit like the old MPT structure? But hey that's a backward step isn't it!

The other bugbear I have with the comparison between NHS and private biomeds is that in the NHS we are required to work on a fantastic variety of equipment types and models, Whereas most private biomeds who work for major companies tend to work on a fairly narrow range of equipment. At the moment I'm engaged in rationalising our database, I estimate that we are responsible for over 3000 different types and models of medical equipment. I appreciate that we cannot be "masters of everything" but we do have to find a solution to all problems thrown at us. This is where our real worth is, if we decided that we would only work on a limited range of equipment then we would have to more than double our staff numbers. So I personally think that with the system we have (AfC) fully qualified biomends (left typo in because that's what we do?) should start at band 6.

Currently in this game in the NHS, the trainee grade is usually a Band 4,
Understanding of a range of work procedures and practices, the majority of which are non-routine, which require intermediate level theoretical knowledge. This knowledge is normally acquired through formal training or equivalent experience

The working grade is generally recognised as a Band 5.
Understanding of a range of work procedures and practices, which require expertise within a specialism or discipline, underpinned by theoretical knowledge or relevant practical experience.

A fully qualified biomed, or biomend merits a Band 6.
Specialist knowledge across the range of work procedures and practices, underpinned by theoretical knowledge or relevant practical experience

I believe its all there, in black and white in the NHS job evaluation handbook.

Bug-bear? "We Specialise in Everything"!

But you may have a point, as (thankfully) we are by no means a "major company".

I hear what you're saying, Bill, especially if a tech is working for one of the manufacturers. But sometimes the opposite is the case, especially for independent (or third-party) service providers. For instance, you must look after a lot of infusion pumps ... but how many different types? Two, or three perhaps. Whilst I (for instance) can see pumps from at least five different manufacturers staring back at me on the shelf. Coupled to that is the fact that all our guys (being what you might call greybeards) are all ex- this or that, and are therefore willing and able to have a crack at anything. And, indeed, do ... on a regular basis. That's just the sort of thing that appeals, to be honest (that is, the scope for inventiveness, and the variety).

I appreciate that this thread is about the NHS situation ... but as the Dark Side has been mentioned, let's not forget that it is also quite diverse, and generalities may not always apply!

No "Pay Bands" and such here, either. It's a question of:- here's a job if you want it. And this is how much* we pay. No increments, and no pension either. You might have better luck negotiating a more interesting "package" with one of the Big Players, of course. It all depends what a bloke is looking for.

3,000 different types? Somehow I doubt that figure, Bill. My money would go on around 800 tops.

The "real worth" of the in-house biomed is just that. In-house. Minimum response time, familiarity, continuity etc.

@Sean: seeing that you introduced this topic with a post about a perceived squeezing of pay bands, how about (for the benefit for all of us - many - outsiders) putting a salary range against each of those Bands and outline "personal specs"?

* The "going rate", in case anyone is interested (around Band 5, I should imagine). And we're still looking for "volunteers"!

Sean,
Just to pick up your points about the different grades, according to our reading of AfC we have used Annexe U to grade our trainees, who by the way are getting on very well and are an asset to our dept. Annexe U is a convoluted way of paying trainees without having to change their grade. Once qualified they go to the bottom of a Band 5. This bypasses the rigmorole of having to apply for a "new" post which would happen if we wanted to promote a band 4 to a 5.

It's just another example of how AfC is interpreted differently across the country.

Could be worse when I was working in the private sector, at the annual appraisal you'd be given a envelope with two figures the inflation rise and your performance rise if any. Now that performance rise was offically secret and not to be disclosed. Turned out it came out that one person was on £8,000 less for the same job. At least with the NHS pay scales thier published for all to see.

Geoff as I just mentioned above the pay scales in the NHS are published so the pay scales for any post would be here

All the relevant information is freely available in the public domain, as Chris states.

For those of you, who require a greater understanding of NHS Job Evaluation; please feel free to use the following link:

http://www.nhsemployers.org/Aboutus/Publ...ird_edition.pdf

Personal specs will vary from post to post, but each post has a job description with essential and desirable criteria to be filled. Advancement within grade is dependant upon achieving compliance with individual KSF's (Key Skills Framework) and local pay progression policies.
Referred to as "BIPP" Behavioural Incremental Progression Policy or may be known under other guises, advancement within grade is aligned to sickness absence and attendance at mandatory training.

Will folk who don't "behave" get deductions?

Not deductions, but advancement is blocked.
Same as private sector, difficult to reduce wage. Though the "Darkside" Manager can withhold bonus or productivity payments, I suppose.
In an ideal world we should take supportive measure's, not punitive, but nothing concentrates the mind more fully than the current NHS HR guidance.

NHS, poor short term sickness absence invokes monitoring, and "BIPP"
Long term sickness absence eventually invokes termination of employ.

Here are a couple of useful quotes from the Dark Side Managers' Handbook:-

1) "My Way, or the Highway"!
2) "If you don't like it, get yer coat"!
3) "Just get on with it"!

Attitudes and perceptions change. For instance, I always used to support free University education for the Brightest (regardless of background). That is, education of the most able paid for by us plebs, the taxpayers. But now that 50% of the undeserved get to go* to University, I've changed my mind, especially after yesterdays disgraceful "demonstrations".

When all is said and done, Public Sector staff are paid out of the Public Purse. That is, by the taxpayer. Meanwhile, those of us on the outside are paid out of customer revenues. In short, if we continue to "under perform", we are out on our arses, simply because the business will ultimately go under.

Meanwhile, it seems that the NHS can "under perform" all it likes, whilst "lessons will be learned". That's it. Who's "having a laugh" there, then?

One way to look at "pay banding" is to compare Pay Slips. When I look at my monthly deductions for income tax, frankly I resent every penny.

* To be "trained" in useful skills such as the Performing Arts and Media Studies (whatever they are).

That’s not strictly true though, is it Geoff?

Those outside who are funded by Customer revenues? Remember Geoff if you are doing work for the NHS as a contractor (or service provider), your payment or funding comes from the taxpayer. And, some of the rip-off Contractor or OEM prices are ultimately charged to the public purse. So, some NHS costs can be contributed to these charges, which in some cases are akin to holding this public service to ransom.

NHS Biomeds don’t just provide a "quick response service". They also provide a "Best Value Service", benchmarking and competitive tendering participation ensure that.

The NHS is a publicly accountable body (local community and staff are represented at Board level as stakeholders). Private Sector Companies may only be accountable to their shareholders - prime motivation and direction is profit driven.

When the Private Sector Companies publish their annual accounts they are not freely available in the public domain. Any NHS spending over £25k is available for public scrutiny.

As far as the NHS is accountable for public monies? Both local audit and independent assurance is sought as part of Standing Financial Insructions.

I think that you will find that the Managers and senior staff, of underperforming NHS Trusts get the big "E" (same as outside).

I could go on about the vast profits already made out of the NHS by Private Finance Initiatives, as a taxpayer yourself, you would more profitably direct your scrutiny not just to the NHS, but to the funding sources tapped by the current and previous governments, and the on-costs to you (and me), the tax payer.

I'm not.

But I'll let matters rest there, Sean. Chains have been yanked for today. Job done!

Well that's a first Geoff; restraint is not a trait I would normally associate with you.

(But perhaps my insertion of a comma after "Remember Geoff”, may have provided more clarity, mate). Not You as an individual, but some in the Private Sector who provides services to the NHS.

In the spirit of detente, I agree some things are better left unsaid. Notwithstanding, you got to love the fencing!
Where would we be without allowing a frank exchange of viewpoints? (North Korea, probably)

Don’t we all have to pay taxes, if we earn sufficient?

In my experience the description of a Darkside Manager accurately describes anyone wishing to remain on the Darkside. In a previous role as a Trade Union official I took delight in ruining the careers of many of them, but sadly not all. They all to a man always thought it most unfair when in turn their higher managers sacrificed them for an agreement, profit rules OK.

As for students, of course they should protest - they have been lied to by the politicians, the same lot that have lied about accrued pensions rights (private and public).

Who’s responsible? Not the students surely, they have been spoon fed their entitlements to further education. There is now absolutely no brakes on the system, “It is my right to go to Uni” they earnestly protest. Years ago standards were set and yes, it was your right to go for free, once you had reached the standard. Now all the Schools and Colleges boast about 98.35% pass rates, I’d like to meet some of the young students that actually did fail!

Let’s face it decades ago most failed, (brutal?), (harsh but fair, I’d argue) but it set standards. Now all students pass, the able and the useless, so what does it all mean? I’m not against education; it is one of the most important aspects of our life, too precious to be wasted. It should be about learning and reaching set standards not collecting meaningless pieces of fancy decorated sheets of paper.

When teaching at a highly regarded college, many of the students were wasters but I was instructed (by one of those Darkside Managers!) not to kick them out, just pass them, since the college would not receive the funding if students left the course before completion. Others doing (Excel) HNC courses never sat an exam, it’s all modular course work now, easily poached from previous students’ work or the internet, needless to say they all passed. As for City & Guilds, most is now all tick a box from 5 answers, 3 of which an idiot could rule out, so now you are left with 2 to choice from. As the pass was 50% right, they all again passed. Sadly these were our future electricians, many of which I would not trust to wire a chicken run! As for university education, I went to the University of Bath, a fine technology university, but alas not as a student but on the building site to wire the place out. In those days 7% went to university, yes the elite, and I was also happy to pay my taxes for them, with the belief that the country would prosper from their endeavours. BUT in those days they weren’t all taking degrees in surfboard management etc..

Unfortunately there are still the able students, industrious in their endeavours, but now pressurised to go to ‘Uni’ to get a degree to set themselves apart from the ‘easy pass brigade’ and so it goes on, standards have sadly fallen.

Even children now burst into tears if they don’t win a race or are beaten at cards, they all have to win. Real life is not like that, perhaps things were a little harsh when I was at school (failed 11+, left as a teenager with no GCEs) but you could go to night school, and if your employer thought you were worth it get day release to a technical college and pass exams after you worked hard to reach the standards. In those days exams were [censored] or bust, but if you gained the ticket at least an employer had confidence that you met a prescribed standard.

Bring back standards and let students keep trying until they reach them, then perhaps we might see standards improve in their behaviour as well. If they can’t meet the standards, then get a job. Education is now a joke controlled by the liberal social engineers, it allows thousands of foreign students to enter the country and enrol on full time courses (specially devised so in reality they only need to attend 1 or at most 2 days a week). This enables them to immediately find employment in the many thousands of jobs our super educated can’t find or won’t do.


Excuse the rant, but I am still shocked to the core from watching TV last night witnessing what looked like some demonstrators burning wreaths previously placed at the Whitehall Cenotaph. If this is what our education system now turns out then there can be absolutely NO standards and that my friends is the problem with our dear country.

It seems that we are in agreement after all, then, Barney.

Apart from the bit about the Dark Side that is. There's no Trade Union here, Mate.

Barney, I could hardly believe my ears watching the news today. On the news that the coalition government are to try and refocus education on exams (you know, like they used to be) the shadow education secretary actually stood up and said there was 'a danger schools would be too academic'. Eh, it's a school. That's what it's supposed to be. With attitudes like that it's easy to see why our education system is so poorly regarded these days.

There was a programme on Channel 4 a few years back called That'll Teach Them. They got a few predicted A* students to sit exams as they were two or three decades ago in four subjects. Only one of them passed more than one subject. I think the majority of them didn't pass any exams at all. 'Nuff said!

I could have sworn this thread was about Current Vacancies...

If you wish to go off on a tangent over the state of education in the UK and naughty students behaviour, get your own thread!!!

But in the meantime, back on topic, if you please.

Ey up Sean ... young Jocky's a new 'un on 'ere tha knows!

An' so ee has yet to realise there was (s'posed to be) an etiquette about t'site!

Allowances will be made (where appropriate).

All relevant comments are welcome; all un-welcome comments are irrelevant.

Given time I think that you will attract staff to posts paying lower than appropriate, its a simple law of supply and demand. The more perplexing question is, after nurturing and training them, will they stay?

Good valid point Barney
Age-old scenario, you train em up, and they spread their wings!

Within the North West it is generally recognised that certain Trusts provide benchmark training to their young biomeds. If they wish to progress and a vacancy was available all well and good, but if the opportunity was not available, they will look elsewhere.
At one time, it was a rumour that Jimmy Gavin at the Countess of Chester, trained all the new biomeds, then other local Trust's poached or offered them jobs. (That is a testament to the high regard that Jimbo's training regime was/is held).
Currently NHS Biomed Managers rarely have the freedom to act that way anymore. (But we would all still like Jimbo's staff).

Life being what it is, young talent moves on unless you can offer them progressive employment, that which ticks all the boxes.

Medical Engineering in the NHS will never improve much across the board unless it is looked at, and organised, on a National basis. And why isn't it anyway?

You know (and as I have mentioned more than a few times in the past), a Central Training School, Specialist 3rd Line Workshops, standardised Policies and Procedures, a Centralised Spare Parts Organisation, common terms and conditions, blokes posted to wherever they are needed ... etc., etc.

If a tech wants "promotion", and the path is blocked where *he happens to be, he checks out the vacancies elsewhere, and (if he really wants it - the promotion, that is) he gets on his bike.

* Insert "she" as and if you wish.

The question is whether there will be any supply compared to demand. In a quick search I found that HND tuition fees are about two thirds that of a degree. There is talk of charging £9,000 a year for a degree so your looking at about £12,000 in total for a HND.

I imaging student numbers are going to drop quite a bit.

Not if the employers pay.

You can’t run the NHS along the lines of the Armed Forces. Blokes posted to wherever they are needed ... indeed

And to be frank, I dont think that there is too much wrong with Medical Engineering per se in the NHS.

Just recruitment and retention, and if my eyesight serves me right when scanning the papers, the same problems still occur in the Mob, so your approach would go down like a lead balloon.

Interesting though, The National Service Health Service is recruiting now, Your Hospital needs You!

They'll love that in what they are calling it 'a period of austerity'

Why not (both are being paid for by the taxpayer)?

If you want efficiency, then something like that (that is, properly organised) is what it takes.

About recruitment and retention ... young techs should be falling over themselves to join. After all, there aren't that many decent tech jobs around these days.

So, if they're not queuing up to start (and don't stay on once they have been trained up) - ask yourself why that is. OK, here's a clue:- real leadership within the "trade" (as in, lack of). Either that or the "biomed ethos" is not being properly sold. What else can it be?

Someone has to pay. Who do you suggest - me?

Much as you would like to run a Biomed Service to the NHS on military lines, its never going to happen.
I for one, left that mindset firmly behind with my beret when I handed it in (all those years ago).

Close the Hangar door and move on Geoff, your viewpoint though interesting on this issue, is out of touch.
If I have any queries regarding military Biomed's I will of course defer to your relevant experience.......

I closed the hanger door (firmly) 27 years ago, Pal. But I have been involved in various other ventures and projects since then, you know. I know what works - and it's not wishy-washy management, believe me!

I am not advocating running anything on "military lines" (you obviously must have missed my earlier criticisms of the "Arborfield Model"), but simply a properly organised approach.

Unlike you, it would seem, I believe I can think "outside of the box", or whatever the Baboons like to call imaginative thinking. After all, it's hardly Rocket Science, is it?

But it's clear to me that most of you guys are, in fact, very content with your Cosy Little World just the way it is.

If you are not interested in further conversation, then why prolong the thread? Or, in other words, why keep moaning about your already entirely adequate pay and conditions?

Meanwhile, perhaps you had better give us a list of folk you will tolerate responding to your thread. In that way we will all know where we stand.

I think your mindset is clearly displayed by anyone familiar with this forum, Geoff.
Closed the hangar door firmly 27 years ago? Check your avatar, I think it speaks volumes.

It is becoming increasingly clear that your quite happy to dish it out and criticise others, (on numerous issues) but when the table is turned, you don’t like it, mate.

You are more often than not having a go at the NHS, most of it not constructive. I can only surmise that this is due to some unfulfilled career aspirations or petty jealousy.

Unless you can be objective, and constructive in your criticisms, feel free to carry on and marginalise yourself, (even further).

Sorry Mate, but you're wrong on all counts there, I'm afraid.

I welcome criticism. It takes a man, you know. OK ... fire away!

Mind-set? Yeah, I have one. One of my own, that is.

But jealousy? Ha, ha. Only in your dreams, Sean. But you're having a laugh, right?

But what's the point of having an Open Forum if everyone agrees?

Anyway, in order to spare everyone else the pain of reading barbed comments, I shall refrain from posting again to your thread (let's see if anyone else does) ....

PS: nice avatar you've got there, by the way.

I doubt anybody will pay for at least three years while the com/dem government is in power. You'll just get a drop in student numbers.

Then after the next election as Mervyn King put it the current government will be unelectable for a generation and we'll be back to Labour with probably a package for poor students.

"You are more often than not having a go at the NHS, most of it not constructive. I can only surmise that this is due to some unfulfilled career aspirations or petty jealousy."

I think that you might have touched a raw nerve!

Then you would be wrong!

Welcome back mate.

Crawlin' back under me stone now.

You wear your heart on your sleeve so you won't be there long.

(I'm off Christmas, sorry wintertide (or something), shopping now, must keep up the old tradition before it gets banned)

Sean, Just a few questions: - 1) Have you ever worked outside Manchester. 2) Have you ever worked outside of the NHS. 3) If the answer to #1 is yes have you ever worked outside of the UK. Geoff and I have agreed on something a long time ago and that is that we would like to see the EBME departments run on the same lines as the Saudi model i.e. a three year contract and done through a tender process separates the wheat from the chaff.

You had better refer back to Sean's original post (at the top of the thread) Neil ... he's not talking about Saudi Arabia is he?

However (whilst I'm out from under my stone), I will go on record once again and confirm that I believe that the three year contract model is indeed a good one (I might even find an earlier post in a minute)!

How about this one?

Boooo.... Pantomime season is here!
I left the private sector beacause I had six different contracts in five years. No job security, unable to plan for the fututre, found it nigh on impossible to get a mortgage. When I returned to the NHS I had a greater sense of security and was able to get on with my life: house, family etc.. I think every biomed over a certain age should return to the NHS to finish off their careers in a safe and secure working environment. Sort of payback for their formative training. Perhaps we should set up biomed retirement villages near to major hospitals and carry on working until we drop.

There you are, then, Neil ... when are you coming back?

So that's three Happy Campers now, then ... Bill in Yorkshire, Mark in Taunton, plus Geoff here and there (and Neil in Jeddah?)!

And therein lies the truth, Bill who is to blame, yourself or the companies that you worked for?

Geoff, coming back to a retirement village, retiring to a village yes but somewhere a lot warmer.

I should imagine that Bill is referring to Agency work, Neil.

But why blame anybody? Some techs prefer a bit of variety. I know that I do.

Speaking for myself, I've been back in the UK almost seven years now, and have lived in at least that many locations. And that's not counting B&B's and places like that. A nomad never settles! Why would you want to?

Perhaps people need to be clear that the so-called Private Sector encompasses all sorts of different scenarios, methods of working, different "enterprises" ... and all the rest. Manufacturers service departments, independent service companies, working through agencies, sole traders and "consultants" ... all the way through to the Dark Side. Diverse is the word!

If a good tech came through an agency to my department I would try to employ him/her on a permanent basis if that was what he/she was looking for.

As I say, many (agency) techs are not looking for that.

And anyway, Neil, that's not (usually) how things work in the NHS. Let's just say that "politics" come into play, Mate.

And don't forget also that it is often the case that Agency Techs only get booked at places that have manning shortfalls for one reason or another. That is, they may not be the sort of places you would want to work at permanently anyway!

I'll say no more (and I think I may have left a cup of tea brewing under my stone)!

But (just for a bit of balance) ... take a look at this job ad.

At the moment we are looking at various options (small business) don't need to make buckets of money just enough to pay the bills, retirement from BME maybe but full time retirement is just enticing an early grave.

Here's a link that should appeal to anyone with AVO as an avatar!

What is the top banding in the NHS, and what does it pay ???
In one of the jobs advertised here it states that if you are NEW to the NHS you will be at the lowest end of the band that you qualify for, now that is a great incentive to join any company. I would rather negotiate a salary rather than concern myself to which band I am going to be allocated to! Whatever happened to paying people what they are worth?

The top banding in the NHS is band 9 and it pays £77,079 - £97,478 but you'd be kidding yourself if you thought you'd get that, more for chef execs.

As stated the typical band for someone experienced and qualified would be band 6, £25,472 - £34,189.

Within the agenda for change system there's gateways where competence and skill are assessed. The first gateway is unspecified but is twelve months on from when you either start or move to the band. The second gateway is 'Before first of last three points' thus since the first gateway can't be after the second it sort of limits where the first gateway can be and thus start pay to £25,472 - £29,464 So there is some room for negotiation, but quite a few trusts start on bottom of the band.

If you don't pass through the gateway, your pay is froze at that level until you pass it.

Ah yes ... but who is the "Gatekeeper"?

Great metaphors, eh?

"The Grass is Always Greener ..." so the hapless would-be recruit peers longingly through the "Gateway".

Just as long as he doesn't end up in the Frozen Pond ... or, worse yet, the Muck-Yard!

It all sounds very reminiscent of "Animal Farm", to me.

@Neil: don't even think about joining in the Fun of the Farmyard ... you wouldn't feel at home, believe me. Unless, that is, you want to risk ending up like Boxer (the horse).

The gateways and how they are implemented are specified in two publications the Agenda for Change handbook and the KSF Handbook (Knowledge and Skills Framework) two highly riveting books

Are you having a laugh?

I think I'll stick with KFC.

Chris, you presume to know me, why do you think I would not be offered a chief exec position. I would have thought that decision was for the gatekeeper. To keep you informed I was just inquiring as I do not believe in pay bands; what happens if you reach the top of your particular band no increase but more responsibility. Pay people what they are worth.

Do I detect a whiff of grandiose delusions here?

OK Neil ... let me be the Gatekeeper. It's SR 12,000 pcm tops, I'm afraid. And I'm only being that generous as I'm aware that it's your birthday soon.

You don't deserve more, as I see that you haven't been paying attention ... annual increments do not necessary imply extra responsibility (but rather the reverse:- one year nearer to drawing the pension).


I can't see that working, Mate ... there would be riots!

Geoff, SR12,000 doesn't cut it mate, wouldn't get out of bed for that amount.Grandiose delusions "no way Jose!!" just having a laugh.

Hi Neil,



Infortunately it was the company I worked for, they started out as IAL, then descended into oblivion. out of some sort of loyalty (AKA Pennies) I stuck with them 'till the bitter end. I guess there were more secure employers out there, perhaps I can blame myself for not jumping ship. Out of interest, which companies have lasted out in the Magic Kingdom since the eighties?

Oh yes! IAL Medical Services ... Alan Martin et al. Remember the offices at Southall? And then my friend Emad El-Dukair (DIAL). Remember the offices in Riyadh? For reasons that I can't really go into here (but you may guess at "internal politics") I was persona non grata there. Remember the "High-Tech Team"? There's a laugh for you!

And how about Mo Powell and "Global"?

Another that comes to mind include MTAS of MAMISS ("Helmsman") fame. Another saga (just ask Tony Dowman).

No "Current Vacancies" I'm afraid, as none have lasted the course as far as I am aware, Bill. Time, and opportunity, marches on!

But meanwhile, how about a Roll of Honour for those who have worked for IAL at any time:-

Ian Dickson
George Titterington
Tony Patel
Tony Dowman
(myself)
Warren Hills (sadly departed)
Irvin Clarke (also departed)
Tony Johnson
Peter Shephard
Terry Horton

... to name but a few!

At least IAL knew that the staff they had were there main commodity and hence treated them well. One of the better comanies I worked for.

On the other hand, many of the Arabian based health related companies during the 80’s were just in it for a quick buck where no thought was given to the welfare of the workforce.

Another one on the list, then, Angus! (nice new avatar, by the way)

I wish we were all back in those Happy Days now, don't you?

Many used to knock Alan Martin (he was known to some as the "Golden Boy"*), but I always rated (and respected) the bloke myself.

It was (and is) easy to criticise, but as I am still fond of saying:- "if you think you are so clever, why not have a go yourself"?

In similar vein, anyone else remember IHG?

And lastly, how about an "honourable mention" for the Saudi hospital O&M companies? Zamil O&M (ZOMCO) being one that I once knew well. Another was SATCO. But there was also GAMA, I-ManCo, SOMC ... and many others!

* Alan had blond hair back then.

Just signed a new contract (11th year) but working for MSD no subcontractors here. Have worked for or through IAL, IHG, Global, Nesma, Greyhound Technologies, Witikar to name but a few. Most of the companies that had good intentions were out-bidded by the cowboys, Sinsila & Rajab springs to mind.

Rajab & Silsilah. Yeh I had a stint with them at King Khalid University Hospital. They knew sod all about hospitals, in fact there main role were the soul traffic light manufacturer in the Kingdom. What a bloody shower.

Any one care to name other cowboy firms, KAKI ??

There will always be cheats, liars and [censored] about, Neil. And there will always be evil, corrupt, lazy, disloyal and inefficient [censored] as well. Not just in Saudi Arabia, but all across the world. Medical equipment suppliers and service providers are by no means immune. And neither are hospital staff, come to that!

Perhaps the latest round of WikiLeaks might just get the Great Unwashed to begin to gain a clue about what has been going on (more or less "forever"). Let's hope it will help to bring about the Real Revolution for which so many hunger (not to mention deserve).

But don't forget there is some Good about as well. It's the eternal struggle, is it not?

Better take another look at Desiderata, Neil. And simply endeavour to live up to its noble ideals yourself ... whilst others continue to do as they may. As Max might have said in an earlier draft, for all I know:- sod them!

PS: the unusual circumstances of trading in the Kingdom was surely one of the reasons that Government healthcare providers there always employed engineering consultants when implementing hospital projects. You know, accountability, checks and balances.

Back to the main thread, do you have all the candidates yet, shortlisted for the first interview. PS I am not applying, money not enough, weather too cold, just signed a new contract.

Does anybody know where the job title "Radiotherapy Electronics Advanced Practitioner" fits in with AfC, KSF, NOS or even the VRCT for that matter? I suppose as a band 7 the sucessful candidate will "R.E.A.P" the rewards ! Nice to see realistic salaries being put forward, I've seen similar Radiotherapy jobs advertised at bands 5 and 6.

The title does not matter but the contents of the job desciption does. Is the person running a service , managing lots of people and a large budget, or do they just hold the greasy rag for the real engineer?
It is all down to how many points you can score with the JD.
And remember "Points make Prizes"
RoJo

Here's one for you (Billy?) as noticed in a recently posted NHS job ad:-

"Fixed Term Temporary Position for 12 Months"

What's that all about I wonder? Cover for maternity leave or some such thing ... or the start of a New Trend?

I believe that NHS doctors etc. sometimes take on work under such (limited) conditions, but usually:-

1) As part of a career path progression
2) With suitable financial incentives

Do such comments apply to biomed posts, I wonder?

My brother, who works in an entirely different field, used to work on a yearly contract scheme that was renewed every year. However when he went to get a mortgage the providers were not interested as he was only on a years contract so could not guarantee any future income.
The up side - for the employer - is that there is no redundacy payments etc if you need to "down size". I wonder if this sort of thing will become more common.
There are peripheral problems to things like this that those "on the dark side" are probably well aware.

RoJo

Yes ... I can see the appeal from the "employer's" point of view. No doubt the Trust is getting let off the hook for all sorts of responsibilities.

It's a bit like getting an Agency Tech on the cheap!

Meanwhile, the thought occurs that this could well become a common tactic, especially as it allows managers to hedge their bets ... especially at sites under possible threat of closure (amalgamation, down-sizing, re-adjustment, re-structuring ... whatever).

It could be Geoff that the person previously there is emmigrating and has taken a career break until they know their settled.

Also the law has changed on continuous renewing of temporary contracts, once its renews a couple of times it automatically becomes permanent.

Now you're the one having a laugh, surely (re:- your first sentence):- everyone else is on hold until the wife decides whether or not she likes the new view? Yeah, right.

How about this take on it all, as (I suspect) a more plausible scenario:- having been, shall we say, "caught out" in the past, the Trust is looking to take on someone on an extended Probationary Period?

We took on a couple of guys on a 3 year contract which surprised me. Being cynical I think it gives us an easy way of "getting rid" if they are not up to scratch. Apparetnly it is very difficult in the NHS to show someone the door if they are not good enough.

A three year probation period sounds a bit long to me, Bill.

I rather suspect it would have been something to do with Pension Rights, or some such thing.

But I expect we shall be seeing this as an emerging trend. That is, techs on "short service commissions", and far more moving around (moving on) after every few years or so. In a way that could be a good thing. A broader experience for the techs, and a wider dispersal of ideas.

Meanwhile, in the Real World job security (security of tenure that is) went out the window long ago. And so, therefore, has loyalty (and, indeed, continuity).

Everyone's a freelance now, Bill (or in the near future, anyway). Especially as forces from the Dark Side continue their onward march* throughout the realms of NHS biomed shops.

Forget the VRCT (it's so yesterday, anyway). It's not proactive. The world moves on too fast for that sort of thing to be much use. Let's start our own gang!

Oh, the Power of Positive Thought!

* Have you heard of any reverting back to in-house? No, neither have I.

No, we had two people emigrate (or attempt to), one decided to stay other one came back after just under a year. During the time both jobs were advertised as temporary 12 months with possibility of becoming permanent if career break person did not return.

As for maximum lengths of temporary contacts, I've just checked and maximum temporary contract is two years, after two years you have the same redundancy rights as someone permanent so the contract automatically becomes permanent.

Oh yes, of course. I must have forgotten that we're talking about the NHS here, not the Real World. Sorry.

And naturally we must assume that the returning wayfarer was by far the best man for the (his) job. To suggest otherwise would be churlish (and that would never do). And no doubt the temporary guy was well chuffed about it all, as well.

Well they do have hospitals down there in Oz Geoff so I can't why he shouldn't be. If anything he probably got the chance to work on yet more kit.

As for the temporary guy he had exactly the same problem as mentioned above, couldn't get a mortgage on a temporary contract. Left for a permanent post at a better grade at another Trust.

Perhaps 3 years ago I gave 6 months employment to a backpacking Irish biomed who happened to see our company name and gave me a ring (nothing what so ever to do with me being from Ireland I should add, no favorites 'round 'ere you know). He was on a one year release from his job in Dublin. Last I heard he was still on the road (somewhere in South America) and his position was still held for him. This was about a year ago so I think he was still travelling after at least 2 years.
Nice work if you can get it!

Where's my backpack?

Oh, there it is ... I'll be ready in a couple of hours, then, Dave.

No worries Geoff. Happy to work for bugger all while living in a ditch are you, aka, the backpacker life style (or is that a reasonable summary of your current status?)

(further banter will have to wait for tomorrow 'cos.... I'm done in,...... night all)

Sounds like you've sussed me out then, Dave (either that, or I've been rumbled, bubbled ... whatever).

After all, I have been known to kip down in the workshop, car, cow-shed, on a hospital bed at the back of a quiet ward - and yes (once only) on an x-ray table ... wherever.

"Happy to work for bugger all" ... well, not happy especially, but I have been known to (when the cause was appealing).

But I must admit that when you mentioned "6 months employment" I took that to mean that you actually paid the guy!

Noticed in a news report today:-


Not to mention reading (instructions) and writing (patient's notes etc.) of course. Now I'm wondering if similar "rules" will apply to biomeds once we have our own "watchdog".

But wait, there's more Good News:-


You couldn't make it up, could you?